Is death just another life?

[Gary K]

I haven't heard that one for awhile. Thanks for posting it.

I'm not sure it's quite as much of a slam dunk as you think. The question that remains is whether Jesus thought "asleep" referred to the body only, or to the whole person. You and I would agree it means the whole person.

But the next step is to determine what "asleep" looks like. The body decays, obviously, but what happens to the soul and/or spirit?

Paul seems to say there's nothing else going on without a resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 (KJV) 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

There you go again with the immortality of the soul. You have a very strange mixture of beliefs. You combine the pagan ideas of worshiping, for the very idea of existence after comes directly from paganism. That's why they worshiped the dead.

Nobody has a better understanding of both life and death than Jesus so when He equates death and sleep His voice is authoritative on the subject above the voice of all others in both OT and NT. He is God. He is the great "I AM".

You might listen to Job's idea of death. His idea of death is worth a lot for God personally vouched for his integrity and character. That's something God has only done for very few people and trusted nobody but Jesus to any greater extent. Job went through hell and maintained his trust in God in spite of that hell.

Sorry I inadvertently posted the wrong link the first time.

 

[glorydaz]

I haven't heard that one for awhile. Thanks for posting it.

I'm not sure it's quite as much of a slam dunk as you think. The question that remains is whether Jesus thought "asleep" referred to the body only, or to the whole person. You and I would agree it means the whole person.

John 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The body is dead until it's raised (either by a miracle or at the resurrection.)

But the next step is to determine what "asleep" looks like. The body decays, obviously, but what happens to the soul and/or spirit?

Paul seems to say there's nothing else going on without a resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 (KJV) 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

That is speaking of Christ's resurrection...without that all would perish.

 

[Idolater]

That's why I compared Aaron to Paul or the other apostles. Of course there are fakes. But if the main guy, Aaron in OT, or Paul or other apostles (all of them) in NT are fakes, the movement dies. That's why Jesus said,
John 17:12 (KJV)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That's why Nadab and Abihu were killed, imo.
Numbers 3:4 (KJV)
And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.

I guess you could understand Paul's overzealous ideology deceiving him into thinking that cold blooded murder (of the right person, such as Stephen in Acts) was not only permissible but was something to boast about; this means it brought him glory, and boasting is when you get glory, and you boast, in all your glory. He was blinded by his ideology.

Aaron, we have no such sympathy for. He literally was told don't practice idolatry, don't be an idolater, but Aaron went ahead and made an idol and then celebrated with Israel, his entirely made up liturgy of offering sacrifices to this idol this idolater made.

He made a choice, and it didn't appear to be much of a difficult choice for him the way the story reads, but perhaps the man was threatened bodily and coerced by Israel and so that's what he did. But it wasn't for his own glory, is what I'm saying. For someone who wants glory, like Paul did, his ideology, which helps him get the glory he desires, can blind you. But what blinded Aaron? Was it literally that he was a coward? Maybe he wasn't a coward, maybe he just wasn't very bright. I don't know, but Paul is definitely bright. He is a thick thinker.

But I don't know. I suppose an argument could be made to vindicate Aaron too. But I think nonetheless we've answered the question that you posed. The movement when ordained by God, is not going to die, no matter what sort of hooligans are ordained. And we're not even talking about any hooligans at all, in talking of Aaron and Paul, not by a long shot.

We don't have any reason to think they did not believe, but even if they didn't, then they did a phenomenal 'forgery', such that the forgery is so skillful that it's a miracle in itself. It persuades people to choose to believe. That's real, even if it's made up.

 

[Derf]

Aaron, we have no such sympathy for. He literally was told don't practice idolatry, don't be an idolater, but Aaron went ahead and made an idol and then celebrated with Israel, his entirely made up liturgy of offering sacrifices to this idol this idolater made.

I would think you of all people would understand the grace potential for Aaron.

The movement when ordained by God, is not going to die, no matter what sort of hooligans are ordained. A

Of course you're right about that, but how would God do it? Might he even threaten to annihilate the whole crew and start over with someone who would be more faithful?

 

[Derf]

John 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The body is dead until it's raised (either by a miracle or at the resurrection.)

That is speaking of Christ's resurrection...without that all would perish.

Then why would that be necessary, if everyone is still alive after they die? I maintain that Paul used "perish" to indicate they were dead with no coming back--not just alive in another place.

 

[glorydaz]

Then why would that be necessary, if everyone is still alive after they die? I maintain that Paul used "perish" to indicate they were dead with no coming back--not just alive in another place.

And that would be true if Christ hadn't resurrected from the dead.

We have eternal life when we believe the gospel of grace, but our body can still die, and will need to be resurrected at the coming of the Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

I would think you of all people would understand the grace potential for Aaron.

Of course you're right about that, but how would God do it? Might he even threaten to annihilate the whole crew and start over with someone who would be more faithful?

God doesn't need faithful men to carry out His will. He can use the basest of men and does quite often.

 

[Idolater]

I would think you of all people would understand the grace potential for Aaron.

Full disclosure it's possible that I thought we were having a different conversation, and I'm sorry, if that's what happened. I certainly have no mental limit placed on God's grace for anybody or anything.

Although murder is a tough one. Well and bearing false witness. Rape. Some other things. I'm not saying I don't believe in God's grace, I'm just saying I also believe in God's justice, and there must be some way that they logically stitch all together into one, and it is I am sure through the New Covenant.

Of course you're right about that, but how would God do it? Might he even threaten to annihilate the whole crew and start over with someone who would be more faithful?

Do you mean who would believe more? Or who would preside over liturgy properly? Because if let's say the Levitical priests and the Levitical high priest are all moral scoundrels, for like a one year period in history, sometime around 50 BC, none of them believing in the Lord; but, they celebrate the Temple liturgy validly. Then that movement will persist, and it's because of the physical work being done rather than the faith being held.

So if God can establish and cultivate institutions like the office of priest, then He can make sure a movement doesn't 'die'. (Arguably with the destruction of the last Temple this liturgy is 'on hold' right now and faithful practicing Jewish people are going to temple or to synagogue and celebrating whatever liturgy they celebrate instead, until there is a new Temple.)

 

[Derf]

God doesn't need faithful men to carry out His will. He can use the basest of men and does quite often.

The apostles may have started base, but they changed.

 

[Idolater]

The apostles may have started base, but they changed.

No doubt.

 

[glorydaz]

The apostles may have started base, but they changed.

Yeah, good point. Well....Judas.......for the worse, I guess.

 

[Derf]

Yeah, good point. Well....Judas.......for the worse, I guess.

Except Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray him.

 

[Derf]

John 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The body is dead until it's raised (either by a miracle or at the resurrection.)

That is speaking of Christ's resurrection...without that all would perish.

Yes, Christ's resurrection. But that means that the state they are in RIGHT NOW (when Paul wrote), was of the same stripe as perished.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, Christ's resurrection. But that means that the state they are in RIGHT NOW (when Paul wrote), was of the same stripe as perished.

No, only their body was dead.

What Paul is talking about is that there would be no hope of resurrection or even life after death if Jesus hadn't died on the cross.

That would be perished....gone forever with no hope of life.

 

[glorydaz]

Except Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray him.

Yep, no doubt about that. His "familiar" friend, I think it was.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Derf]

Yep, no doubt about that. His "familiar" friend, I think it was.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This is the one I was thinking of.
John 6:64 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[Derf]

No, only their body was dead.

What Paul is talking about is that there would be no hope of resurrection or even life after death if Jesus hadn't died on the cross.

That would be perished....gone forever with no hope of life.

You say, "no", but the immortality of the soul wouldn't depend on Jesus' bodily resurrection. Yet Paul said they would be perished--"gone forever with no hope of life."

 

[glorydaz]

This is the one I was thinking of.
John 6:64 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Yep, that's a good one. From prophecy we have....

Psalm 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

 

[glorydaz]

You say, "no", but the immortality of the soul wouldn't depend on Jesus' bodily resurrection. Yet Paul said they would be perished--"gone forever with no hope of life."

Yep, no hope of life. Gone forever into the lake of fire with the rest of the unsaved.

 

[Derf]

Yep, no hope of life. Gone forever into the lake of fire with the rest of the unsaved.

Then you admit Paul talks in terms of a future reality as if it were already here?