Is Calvinism Wrong?

[Clete]

Jesus did far more than atone for our sins and the sins of the world. You have half of the Gospel but not the whole Gospel. Not only did Jesus die for us, he lived for us. In our name and on our behalf he offered to God the father a life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law. When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him. This is how we are justified. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5. He justifies the ungodly by doing for them that which we cannot do for ourselves.

Chapter and verse please.

I've never heard anyone say that Jesus lived His phyiscal life on our behalf. Paul teaches that we have died to the law so that we might live to God. That Jesus lives (present tense) in us and that the life we know live we live (present tense) by faith in Christ who gave Himself (i.e. died) for us.

I recall no mention of Jesus having lived His life vicariously on our behalf.

Clete

 

[john w]

I recall no mention of Jesus having lived His life vicariously on our behalf.

Clete

Correctamundo, Clete, as you, I, countless other members of the boc have been expounding on, for years, to Pate, and others that have "ears to hear.".

The vicarious law keeping thread(S)...

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117786-The-Two-Natures-of-the-Christian/page5

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...utes-the-Calvinist-Doctrine-of-Predestination


Again...

HOGWASH!

Jesus as our representative and substitute fulfilled the law in our name and on our behalf.

Made up. No scripture assert that He fulfilled the law in our name and on our behalf. I had this discussion with Calvinist Naggy the barbiturate/downer. You talk like her-she talks like you.

To wit...

“Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect….The elect are predestined to share in the glory of Christ, because He deserves to receive all the divine promises of the Kingdom.Jesus Christ merited our part in His kingdom, by assuming flesh and coming into the world as our Mediator. He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf, and substitutionally suffered our deserved sentence of death in our stead. Even the elect were by nature, the same as the children of wrath, prior to being regenerated and gifted with grace to believe. Ephesians 2:3-10”-Nag

"He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf"-Nag


This is perverting the gospel of Christ, as that is "vicarious lawkeeping," and no scripture says that.


The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.

"Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect."-Nag

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:21 KJV


Repeating, as you learn, through repetition:


The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.

"ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;" Rom. 7:4 KJV

Romans 7:1-7 KJV....

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? "

The law has power, jurisdiction, over a man/woman, only as long as they are alive.

Light bulb?

"For ye are dead,.." Col. 3:3 KJV

A dead man is not subject to any civil, local, or "religious"(used generically here) law. Thus, the member of the boc, who is reckoned dead, is not subject to the law, because he/she is considered dead, risen, seated with the Lord Jesus Christ. The law has lost its authority, to bring either condemnation, or righteousness,through the "vicarious obedience/law keeping" of the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, Paul asserts Romans 10:4 KJV.

Had the Lord Jesus Christ only kept the law, we would all be "Krispy Kritters." Anyone who kept the law, it would have been the righteousness of the law, not the righteousness of God(memorize that), which has NADA to do with obeying the law.

His Holy character was essential to His nature, as well as proving that He was qualified to become our "lamb ...without blemish"(Ex. 12:5 KJV), attested to by Peter(1 Peter 1:19 KJV). But for what purpose? For sacrifice. But His holiness was not vicarious, or "credited" to us in some way. The good news is not that He lived our obedience for us, but that "Christ...died for our sins...was buried...he rose again the third day...was raised again for our justification."(1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, Rom. 4:25 KJV).


"Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect"-Nag

No, He is our righteousness.



1 Corinthians 1 KJV
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:




“Jesus Christ revealed His sinlessness in an assumed body of flesh, under the Law.He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God. Only the Son of God, come as the Son of Man, could achieve such righteousness. He did for us, what we never could have done for ourselves.The Law is not bad. The Law is holy and righteous.The only thing bad about the Law, is we can't keep it. But Jesus Christ did and His faithfulness, including His suffering the wrath of God and dying our sentence of death in our stead, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. His resurrection is our guarantee of everlasting life, for now we live in Him, and are no longer under obligation to the Law for self-righteousness.You really would benefit from some study of Christ's Office of Mediator.”-Nag

"He accomplished legal righteousness for us, "-Naggie

Yes, righteousness is imputed to us, but no on ....


"He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God.."-Nag

...as it has NADA to do with the Saviour keeping the holy laws of God on our behalf. That is "vicarious lawkeeping," and perverts the gospel of Christ. Him keeping the holy law of God qualified Him to be the "lamb without blemish," to be the propitiation(satisfactory sacrifice).

 

[Clete]

Correctamundo, Clete, as you, I, countless other members of the boc have been expounding on, for years, to Pate, and others that have "ears to hear.".

The vicarious law keeping thread(S)...

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117786-The-Two-Natures-of-the-Christian/page5

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...utes-the-Calvinist-Doctrine-of-Predestination


Again...





Made up. No scripture assert that He fulfilled the law in our name and on our behalf. I had this discussion with Calvinist Naggy the barbiturate/downer. You talk like her-she talks like you.

To wit...

“Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect….The elect are predestined to share in the glory of Christ, because He deserves to receive all the divine promises of the Kingdom.Jesus Christ merited our part in His kingdom, by assuming flesh and coming into the world as our Mediator. He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf, and substitutionally suffered our deserved sentence of death in our stead. Even the elect were by nature, the same as the children of wrath, prior to being regenerated and gifted with grace to believe. Ephesians 2:3-10”-Nag

"He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf"-Nag


This is perverting the gospel of Christ, as that is "vicarious lawkeeping," and no scripture says that.


The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.

"Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect."-Nag

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:21 KJV


Repeating, as you learn, through repetition:


The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.

"ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;" Rom. 7:4 KJV

Romans 7:1-7 KJV....

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? "

The law has power, jurisdiction, over a man/woman, only as long as they are alive.

Light bulb?

"For ye are dead,.." Col. 3:3 KJV

A dead man is not subject to any civil, local, or "religious"(used generically here) law. Thus, the member of the boc, who is reckoned dead, is not subject to the law, because he/she is considered dead, risen, seated with the Lord Jesus Christ. The law has lost its authority, to bring either condemnation, or righteousness,through the "vicarious obedience/law keeping" of the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, Paul asserts Romans 10:4 KJV.

Had the Lord Jesus Christ only kept the law, we would all be "Krispy Kritters." Anyone who kept the law, it would have been the righteousness of the law, not the righteousness of God(memorize that), which has NADA to do with obeying the law.

His Holy character was essential to His nature, as well as proving that He was qualified to become our "lamb ...without blemish"(Ex. 12:5 KJV), attested to by Peter(1 Peter 1:19 KJV). But for what purpose? For sacrifice. But His holiness was not vicarious, or "credited" to us in some way. The good news is not that He lived our obedience for us, but that "Christ...died for our sins...was buried...he rose again the third day...was raised again for our justification."(1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, Rom. 4:25 KJV).


"Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect"-Nag

No, He is our righteousness.



1 Corinthians 1 KJV
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:




“Jesus Christ revealed His sinlessness in an assumed body of flesh, under the Law.He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God. Only the Son of God, come as the Son of Man, could achieve such righteousness. He did for us, what we never could have done for ourselves.The Law is not bad. The Law is holy and righteous.The only thing bad about the Law, is we can't keep it. But Jesus Christ did and His faithfulness, including His suffering the wrath of God and dying our sentence of death in our stead, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. His resurrection is our guarantee of everlasting life, for now we live in Him, and are no longer under obligation to the Law for self-righteousness.You really would benefit from some study of Christ's Office of Mediator.”-Nag

"He accomplished legal righteousness for us, "-Naggie

Yes, righteousness is imputed to us, but no on ....


"He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God.."-Nag

...as it has NADA to do with the Saviour keeping the holy laws of God on our behalf. That is "vicarious lawkeeping," and perverts the gospel of Christ. Him keeping the holy law of God qualified Him to be the "lamb without blemish," to be the propitiation(satisfactory sacrifice).

Wow! Excellent post! I had no idea that there was such a history. I've been staying away from the Calvinists lately.

Wouldn't "vicarious law keeping", as you put it, be sort of insinuating that Jesus (God the Son) wasn't already righteous before the incarnation and/or that it was His keeping the law that made Him righteous?

Also, do these people believe that this VLK (vicarious law keeping) idea is a belief that one must hold to in order to be saved?

The whole idea just seem heretical from a dozen different directions.

Clete

 

[john w]

Wow! Excellent post! I had no idea that there was such a history. I've been staying away from the Calvinists lately.

Wouldn't "vicarious law keeping", as you put it, be sort of insinuating that Jesus (God the Son) wasn't already righteous before the incarnation and/or that it was His keeping the law that made Him righteous?

Also, do these people believe that this VLK (vicarious law keeping) idea is a belief that one must hold to in order to be saved?

The whole idea just seem heretical from a dozen different directions.

Clete

Thanks, brother Clete. Some view me as a mean spirited, "un cultured," intolerant,.......meanie, in my approach; I concur, that I am a bit "ornery," "go too far," often. However, this explains my approach with Pate, as, for years, he(and others), on thread, after thread, that are duplicate threads, have been spamming this made up "vicarious law keeping" jazz, which is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.He is called on it, and just spams the same old secular humanism reasoning, word for word regurgitation, and disses challenges to his "argument," with sophistry, deceit. So, this thread is not the first "go around" I, others, have had with him.

I will continue to mark/identify/expose, the wolves, wolf-ette's, that espouse this satanic "doctrine," w/o reservation, and w/o apology, as demanded by the LORD God, and ignore the boo's hisses, spit balls, hurled at me, from the fox holes, bleachers, peanut gallery.


That is just how I role....

 

[john w]

Wouldn't "vicarious law keeping", as you put it, be sort of insinuating that Jesus (God the Son) wasn't already righteous before the incarnation and/or that it was His keeping the law that made Him righteous?

On the mark analysis, which we have pointed out to Pate, others, ad nauseam.

 

[Right Divider]

The fact that you don't believe this major doctrine is very serious, I am only going to give you one scripture, because I think that you are beyond hope, Romans 7:6.

ONCE AGAIN, that scripture does NOT say that "Jesus kept the law for us".

You're got some false doctrines that you're in love with.

 

[glorydaz]

If Jesus did not keep the law for us we are all still under the law and under condemnation. Not only did Jesus keep the law for us, Galatians 3:10, he abolished it so that we would be free from it, Ephesians 2:15.

You should know and believe this simple truth.

Those verses don't say what you claim.

No, the law of the Spirit of life IN CHRIST has made us free from the law of sin and death. Christ's obedience UNTO DEATH took away our condemnation...not His keeping of the law. It was His dying. Philippians 2:8

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

That's why the Gospel is, specifically, the death/burial/resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

What you're doing, Robert, is ADDING to the Gospel.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes. Unlike you, I study the details of the bible, and the details of a member's argument-very carefully. That is why I am one of the most respected, feared, and followed TOL members, all in extreme humility. He is a child of the devil, based upon his testimony,not on any emotional assessment, that seems prevalent on this site. My assessment/judgment stands, and I have marked/exposed/identified him, as the LORD God requires, yes, demands, as a wolf, in sheep's clothing.

You might be the most ignored member of TOL... because if anyone is baited into replying back to you with even a tithe of your vitriol they are likely to get banned for bad behavior.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm 5'10, weigh 175. Put up your pic, old man. Give us your stats.

I thought so. Tough guy, are you, TOL clown?

You are quite the amusing elf.

You are bragging about your height? Want to brag about your eye color and the tint of your skin while you're at it? Maybe your gender? Why is a discussion of this sort taking up multiple pages? Whomever walks away from this absurdity first is the winner as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Rosenritter]

I have NO Real friends on this site. Actually, does anyone REALLY KNOW anyone else in the 'Cyber-World?'

Yes, you can really know someone else in a cyber-world. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, a good man brings forth a good treasure of his heart and an evil man brings forth evil treasure. (Matt 12:34, Luke 6:45). Aside from gospel application, I even know a couple that met each other (and were engaged) through a cyber world environment. They're married and have a kid now.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Clete]

On the mark analysis, which we have pointed out to Pate, others, ad nauseam.

So, if I'm catching the drift here, you're saying that he doesn't even bother to make an argument but just acts as if vicarious law keeping is such an obvious truth that it doesn't need to be established and then acts all offended when people get frustrated to the point of anger with him. Is that basically how it goes? (I think I've been an actor in that play a few times myself.)

If so, imagine the psychological condition it must require to rail as he does against the Calvinist and Catholic and other "religious" people because their religion is proof of the absence of faith and their rejection of "the gospel that saves" while at the same time simply believing a doctrine that some human being taught him that is not only wildly unorthodox but that cannot be defended biblically.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You're all heretics who follow false doctrines of men anyway, so why argue with each other? Why do you all strain at the gnat when you have all swallowed the camel. Calivinism, Adventism, JW, OSAS, Sola Scritupra, Sola Fide..... .......its all crap.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

SOURCE:

 

[Clete]

You're all heretics who follow false doctrines of men anyway, so why argue with each other? Why do you all strain at the gnat when you have all swallowed the camel. Calivinism, Adventism, JW, OSAS, Sola Scritupra, Sola Fide..... .......its all crap.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

SOURCE:

:troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[7djengo7]

The Pharisees followed the religion of the law. The law is found in the first 5 books of the Old Testament. The answer is yes.

They thought that Stephen had committed blasphemy and was worthy of death.

Yes? Really? The Bible directed the Pharisees to stone Stephen to death? Astonishing.

So, the Bible directed the Pharisees to stone people who, like Stephen, were innocent of blasphemy, and were NOT worthy of death?

Where, in the law, did God command anyone to stone people to death, on a charge of blasphemy, who had NOT committed blasphemy?

Did the Bible--the law--also direct the Pharisees to bear false witness against Stephen in charging him with blasphemy?

"They thought..."

So what? Did the Bible direct the Pharisees to think that Stephen had committed blasphemy and was worthy of death?

 

[john w]

You might be the most ignored member of TOL... because if anyone is baited into replying back to you with even a tithe of your vitriol they are likely to get banned for bad behavior.

No, that would be you, toots:

The page of the Rifleman, saint(memorize that) John W, one of the most respected, feared, and followed TOL members....:

This page has had 16,782 visits



Vs. yours, the "ignored" one:

This page has had 204 visits



You're quite harmless, and your " a tithe of your vitriol " really bamboozled me.....

 

[john w]

You are bragging about your height? Want to brag about your eye color and the tint of your skin while you're at it? Maybe your gender? Why is a discussion of this sort taking up multiple pages? Whomever walks away from this absurdity first is the winner as far as I'm concerned.

You missed it. Gramps brought it up. Of course, since you don't follow the thread, only reading your own jumbled, disjointed "posts"(loosely employed here), you'd not know that.


Now-take your seat, way in the back....A bit further back....Near the "exit" sign.