popsthebuilder1
New member
By one true Gospel, you aren't referring to the Gospel of the kingdom of GOD that Jesus the Christ of GOD preached, are you?
peace
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Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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peace
Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk
Greetings again popsthebuilder1,
Kind regards
Trevor
I am referring to the One True Gospel from the Garden of Eden Genesis 3:15 till now with some additional details and clarifications as time progressed. This One Gospel was preached by Jesus, the 12 Apostles Acts 2 and 3, Philip Acts 8:5-6,12 and the Apostle Paul Acts 28:30-31. Please refer to my discussion with Jerry on this thread. There is no need to repeat this material.
Kind regards
Trevor
Right Divider
Body part
So you completely avoided what I said.
There is not one instance recorded in scripture of the Lord Jesus Christ uttering the word "grace" during His earthly ministry.
Why is that?
I will not move forward with any other dialog until you agree with that and give your explanation as to why the Lord Jesus Christ did not utter the word "grace" in His entire earthly ministry of over 3 years. And that also includes this time on earth after His resurrection.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
To be plain: I do NOT accept unconditional, non-meritorious election because that demands the reprobation of innocents.
All the time I see people use the facts about salvation interchangeably with the facts about election which is wrong theology! It is salvation that is based upon Christ only, the unearned gift of grace, because as sinners we have LOST the ability for a free will decision in our enslaving addiction to sin and cannot save ourselves.
But a meritorious, conditional, ELECTION makes our election to be a GOD's response to the merit found in our putting our faith in HIM and in HIS Son as our saviour by our free will BEFORE we ever sinned. That is when we became HIS flock when HE elected us to conform to HIS Son (if we should ever sin) in response to our expression of faith, our unproven hope HE was telling us the truth in HIS gospel.
Everyone chose their eternal FATE by choosing their eternal relationship with HIM as our Creator GOD or as the first and worst false god and liar in all creation. Those who put their faith in HIM as GOD became HIS elect. Those who rejected HIM and put their faith in HIM being a false god were passed over for election as being unforgivable. But when some of HIS elect flock rebelled becoming sheep gone astray into sin, HE then created the physical universe and gave all sinners predetermined LIVES on prison earth for the redemption of HIS sinful elect.
Thus we CHOSE our fates but only Christ can fulfill the promise of our election, that is, our salvation, within us since our sin renders us incapable to save ourselves.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
You can drink it with Him in His kingdom right now by accepting nothing but the gospel of Christ for salvation., when you do you become a member of His body and set with Him at the right hand of the Father in the Father's kingdom.
You are sadly mistaken about the most important message but of course you would say it isn't the most important message because you have to hold to a water baptism for remission. Which is nothing more than your righteous works for salvation.
True, Jesus Christ is the creator, but if you deny His cross as God's most important message (Mat 26:28} God will deny you.
Both are wrong as you are, rap your head around the truth. Man can not convey the truth, ultimate truth belongs to God and can only be conveyed by His Christ given Spirit and it has nothing to do with the element of water. Peter as others were filled with the Holy Spirit of power to convey to Israel about a earthly kingdom with signs and wonders.
Then shortly after Christ gave the New testament of His blood and the apostles were offered the Spirit , Peter denied Christ three times.
Joh 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
Joh 18:21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
Joh 18:22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
Joh 18:23 Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
Joh 18:24 Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.
Joh 18:25 And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not.
Joh 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
Joh 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
Peter denied Christ after he should have been filled with the Holy Ghost (Joh 20:22) because Peter still feared death which you should if you believe as Peter did concerning the gospel of Christ at that time.
Paul did not get his revelations of the gospel from man, Paul got them from the Spirit of the transfigured Christ. It is a mystery to you at this time and displayed by your blasphemy of Christ's blood bought remission for sin as the most important message. Don't you see there is no water for remission of sin in Mat 26:28, Stop denying the truth. Here it is again and it is not complicated unless you were taught to believe in a works salvation as Peter was, show me the water.
Mat 26:28.. For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Dispensations of the gospel fully revealed are evident in man's ability to progressively believe the gospel of Christ. God offers but because of unbelief of men God still saves because God wants none to perish while they make effort to draw near to Him, his grace is displayed with salvation in any dispensation for His children. Dispensations of God not men concerning gospel salvation climax in progressive truth revealed at the end of His scripture about His Son's death. God cut Israel off because of Spiritual unbelief because they held to righteous works of the flesh and a earthly kingdom. God sent Paul to the gentiles with revelations. Paul's revelations revolve around one baptism, free from the law, and a Spiritual kingdom received not by the work of men or anything they can do. Paul revealed that eternal salvation is a gift bought by the blood of Christ.
Compare things that are different...
Our obedience........Obedience of Christ
Our faith..................Faith of Christ
Our works................Works of Christ
Water baptism.........Spirit baptism
Corruptible............. Incorruptible
Saved...................... Eternal Life
Old covenants.........New Testament (Mat 26:28)
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I without searching scripture gave you this..."the Lord Jesus Christ did not utter the word "grace" in His entire earthly ministry of over 3 years" but He displayed it. Christ was the embodiment of Grace as he forgave sins, the lame walked, and the blind gained sight and grace was not even denied to believers at that time based on the apostles message of an earthly kingdom. Christ did not have to utter the word grace, he displayed it by giving grace to all that drew near. All form the beginning of time have been saved by God's grace.
If grace was not granted during that time you specified then how and why were they saved?
Edit: You have drawn me in, now fill me in about God's Grace.
Right Divider
Body part
That is a great way to avoid the actual question. If Christ was "preaching grace", He would have said so.
You keep trying to steer the conversion.
God grants His grace in different ways at different times.
popsthebuilder1
New member
A simple yes or no would suffice.
Are you speaking about the gospel of the kingdom of GOD or that GOD died?
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Of course He does but it is unwavering in any dispensation.
I'm definitely not the one trying to avoid the conversation by any means.
You tell me why according to your words..."There is not one instance recorded in scripture of the Lord Jesus Christ uttering the work "grace"".
I know you meant word but you did a slip and wrote "work".
God's grace superseded their work because they were trying to the best of their knowledge to draw near to God, thus they under the kingdom message were saved by God's grace as we all are under a new testament(Mat 26:28) or as you would say a different gospel that Christ died for our sins.
Edit:
ct 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The Ascension
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
If it wasn't given to them to know..how could they be held accountable to know even though they were given power to be witnesses to the uttermost part of the earth?
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Can anyone imagine that is free of works for salvation, living during that time of works and wanting to draw near to God while God was holding the mystery of Christ. Paul was not taught by men the evaluation of Christ.
God made a way to save by His grace in times past but now in this dispensation the mystery of Christ is revealed and salvation is not attainable by any work of the flesh. Water baptism was superseded by Spirit baptism because now salvation is in the works of Christ's in the flesh not men.
Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom_16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Co_2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Eph_1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph_3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
God made a way to save by His grace in times past but now in this dispensation the mystery of Christ is revealed and salvation is not attainable by any work of the flesh. Water baptism was superseded by Spirit baptism because now salvation is in the works of Christ's in the flesh not men.
Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom_16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Co_2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Eph_1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph_3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Greetings again popsthebuilder1,
Kind regards
Trevor
I am speaking about the Gospel which contains two major subdivisions, the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ Acts 8:5-6,12. God did not die, but our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God died and three days later God the Father raised him from the dead and exalted him to sit at his right hand in heaven Psalm 110:1. I cannot give a simple yes or no to your ambiguous question.
Kind regards
Trevor
Right Divider
Body part
If the Lord Jesus Christ was preaching grace, He would have used the word.
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Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Right Divider
Body part
That is NOT Jesus speaking.
....but Jesus was the Word and embodiment of grace.
Right Divider
Body part
That is irrelevant to the point that I made. Jesus never preached grace during His earthly ministry.... period.
So, why is it important to you that he did not say the word grace when he taught it and displayed it for all to see?
Right Divider
Body part
Because He didn't "teach it"... He taught the law. (eg. Matt 23:1-3)
Greetings Right Divider and Cntrysner,
Yes, there is a development between the preaching and teaching during the ministry of Jesus and the preaching by Peter, Philip and Paul after the death and the resurrection of Jesus:
Luke 8:1 (KJV): And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
What has developed is that Jesus revealed “grace and truth” and salvation was now revealed to be in and through the Name of Jesus Christ, and this includes belief in the death and resurrection of Christ and baptism by water into His Name. The “things concerning the Kingdom of God” has not changed from Luke 8:1 to Acts 8:12, but possibly Jesus added more details when he spoke to the Apostles after the resurrection. Jesus was not teaching them a different gospel.
Acts 1:3 (KJV): To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Kind regards
Trevor
I was interested in the above discussion and would like to endorse what Cntrysner has stated. Jesus did not “preach grace”, he revealed grace and was the very embodiment of grace as John 1:17 quoted above clearly states. Even the different verbs “given” “the law was given by Moses” and “came” “but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ” show the weight of this embodiment of grace in Jesus. I am not an English or Greek scholar, but “was given” seems to be a past event seeming to possibly fade into the distant past, while “came” seems to be present, continuous and relevant.
Yes, there is a development between the preaching and teaching during the ministry of Jesus and the preaching by Peter, Philip and Paul after the death and the resurrection of Jesus:
Luke 8:1 (KJV): And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
What has developed is that Jesus revealed “grace and truth” and salvation was now revealed to be in and through the Name of Jesus Christ, and this includes belief in the death and resurrection of Christ and baptism by water into His Name. The “things concerning the Kingdom of God” has not changed from Luke 8:1 to Acts 8:12, but possibly Jesus added more details when he spoke to the Apostles after the resurrection. Jesus was not teaching them a different gospel.
Acts 1:3 (KJV): To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Kind regards
Trevor
genuineoriginal
New member
Not at all.
If you think I am mistaken, you really don't know the Bible.