Is America great?

[gcthomas]

There is no scientific reference that can support the claim that a human being is not created at the moment of conception.

You are assuming a rather different meaning of the term human being than the one the rest of us are using.

Is this by accident, or are you just playing linguistic, rhetorical games? Can't you define the term?

 

[Sancocho]

You are assuming a rather different meaning of the term human being than the one the rest of us are using.

Is this by accident, or are you just playing linguistic, rhetorical games? Can't you define the term?

You and yours do not speak for the scientific community. I am a graduate engineer now involved in research.

 

[noguru]

No one here doubts my stance on child sacrifice, the same can't be said for you.

As far as "facing reality", good grief I can't believe you are trying to minimize homicide again.

I would rather be a fool than a facilitator for justifying the dismemberment of others.

:rotfl:

As I stated before, you have sacrificed accuracy for an illusion of certainty. In order to impress others with your zeal.

You are sinister.

I have never facilitated the dismemberment of others, nor do I condone it. Your inability to understand the complexities here does not prohibit others from understanding.

 

[noguru]

You and yours do not speak for the scientific community. I am a graduate engineer now involved in research.

:rotfl:

Your posts get more funny the more I learn about you. An engineer is not necessarily a scientist. You use applied physics that has been canned for the purpose of production. This does not automatically translate into a comprehensive grasp of science as a whole.

What kind of research do you do?

 

[noguru]

There is no scientific reference that can support the claim that a human being is not created at the moment of conception.

The scientific consensus supports exactly the statement I posted as being accurate. What exactly are you debating about this?

It is the start of a human being, and it has the potential to become one.

 

[noguru]

But the only thing it can become is a person.

There are many ways for a fetus to not progress to the point of becoming an independent person. I do believe that, in scripture, even God commanded his people to terminate the fetuses of some of the enemies of Israel.

 

[Sancocho]

:rotfl:

Your posts get more funny the more I learn about you. An engineer is not necessarily a scientist. You use applied physics that has been canned for the purpose of production. This does not automatically translate into a comprehensive grasp of science as a whole.

What kind of research do you do?

I did research at the graduate level with a full scholarship to be groomed as a research scientist. I left the program for personal reasons and my GPA was 3.4.

I have worked as a civil engineer with an emphasis on the environmental issues, such as hydrology and water quality for over 20 years and have years of researching rules and methodologies.

I returned to get my masters in another language and now am forming a Human Rights Center in Latin America to stop the spread of abortion here and will use my experience in research to do something that apparently never has been done, look at abortion using the same standards used in other areas of social indicators. I am also compiling information for a book to be published in English and Spanish and promoted in the Americas.

 

[Sancocho]

The scientific consensus supports exactly the statement I posted as being accurate. What exactly are you debating about this?

Please post any references you have.

 

[Sancocho]

There are many ways for a fetus to not progress to the point of becoming an independent person. I do believe that, in scripture, even God commanded his people to terminate the fetuses of some of the enemies of Israel.

God used Israel as His personal tool of justice, so it is not correct to infer that somehow abortion is ok because God commanded the Jews to kill children in the womb, after all the 10 commandments forbade killing.

 

[gcthomas]

You and yours do not speak for the scientific community. I am a graduate engineer now involved in research.

Haha. I want YOU to speak for yourself. Your use of the term human being does not seem to match mine or others usage, and you seem very unwilling to be specific. Why is that? Does your argument rely on blurring the differences to get emotional responses?

Emotion is a base response and should take second place to intellect.

(BTW, you're not the only graduate engineer with masters level qualifications in this discussion. Not that being an engineer gives you bragging rights and the freedom to lord it over others.)

 

[Sancocho]

Haha. I want YOU to speak for yourself. Your use of the term human being does not seem to match mine or others usage, and you seem very unwilling to be specific. Why is that? Does your argument rely on blurring the differences to get emotional responses?

Emotion is a base response and should take second place to intellect.

(BTW, you're not the only graduate engineer in this discussion. Not that being an engineer gives you bragging rights and the freedom to lord it over others.)

Please tell me your qualifications in the area of science. I have already posted mine. Thanks.

At any rate in order to discuss science verifiable scientific references, so please post the basis of your thesis.

 

[noguru]

I did research at the graduate level with a full scholarship to be groomed as a research scientist. I left the program for personal reasons and my GPA was 3.4.

I have worked as a civil engineer with an emphasis on the environmental issues, such as hydrology and water quality for over 20 years and have years of researching rules and methodologies.

I returned to get my masters in another language and now am forming a Human Rights Center in Latin America to stop the spread of abortion here and will use my experience in research to do something that apparently never has been done, look at abortion using the same standards used in other areas of social indicators. I am also compiling information for a book to be published in English and Spanish and promoted in the Americas.

I can respect your credentials and your goals. My only advice would be to not sacrifice an effective methodology because you are overly fixated on your goal. I think education is the key and that legislation is not a comprehensive answer.

 

[gcthomas]

Please tell me your qualifications in the area of science. I have already posted mine. Thanks.

I'm still waiting for you to tell us what you mean by 'human being'. It is an important part of the discussion and more important than you trying to be the alpha male. Engineering qualifications are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Sancocho]

I can respect your credentials and your goals. My only advice would be to not sacrifice an effective methodology because you are overly fixated on your goal. I think education is the key and that legislation is not a comprehensive answer.

Thanks for the positive comment. God bless. Pray for my success to save lives.

 

[noguru]

Please post any references you have.

All references in embryology support my view that, at conception there is the start of a human being. Please post your references that negate this view.

Do you need to review the definitions of conception?

1. the act of conceiving; the state of being conceived.

2. fertilization; inception of pregnancy.

3. a notion; idea; concept :
She has some odd conceptions about life.

4. something that is conceived :
That machine is the conception of a genius.

5. origination; beginning:
The organization has been beset by problems from its conception.

6. a design; plan.

7. a sketch of something not actually existing:

 

[noguru]

God used Israel as His personal tool of justice,

I would like you to explain to me, from your perspective, how the killing of unborn children in scripture can be seen as "justice"?

so it is not correct to infer that somehow abortion is ok because God commanded the Jews to kill children in the womb, after all the 10 commandments forbade killing.

I am not inferring that "abortion is OK" as a generalized statement. And as you see even scripture can have a seemingly contradictory view of "killing". I am simply pointing out the facts as they exist in the real world. Your misguided attempts to brush them under the rug will not make them just go away.

And what gives you the right to tell any potential mother that she cannot make her own decision?

God is in charge, not you.

 

[Sancocho]

All references in embryology support my view that, at conception there is the start of a human being. Please post your references that negate this view.

This is my understanding as well, ie a unique human being with unique DNA is created at the moment of conception.

From a theological stance the Bible states in Jeremiah 1:5 God knew Jeremiah before He formed him in the womb (the early stages of conception) and the fact that Jesus Christ was spoken of right before His conception clearly establish a unique person with a soul is created at conception.

The definition of the Hebrew term form "יָצַר" is used when describing forming pottery out of clay.

 

[noguru]

This is my understanding as well, ie a unique human being with unique DNA is created at the moment of conception.

From a theological stance the Bible states in Jeremiah 1:5 God knew Jeremiah before He formed him in the womb (the early stages of conception) and the fact that Jesus Christ was spoke of right before His conception clearly establish a unique person with a soul is created at conception.

Here is the definition of the Hebrew term form "יָצַר" ."http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3335.htm

There is nothing new under the sun. All things are a recombination of past things. What makes anything unique is its specific recombination.

Are you certain that knowing "Jeremiah" prior to being in the womb is a reference to him as an individual prior to physical conception?

It sounds more like an expression of destiny or fate based on the real events that did occur, rather than support for what you are claiming. Given that it is the physical recombination of genes (as well as any copying errors) that make an individual unique.

At any rate, you do agree with my statement that:

"At conception there is the beginning of a human being."

If you agree, then why were you debating this?

 

[Sancocho]

I would like you to explain to me, from your perspective, how the killing of unborn children in scripture can be seen as "justice"?

The 10 commandments clearly establish God's desire for us. However, God is not held to the 10 commandments because He is incapable of sinning or being unjust. Therefore, if he decided to have the Jews kill people it was a just decision.

I am not inferring that "abortion is OK" as a generalized statement. And as you see even scripture can have a seemingly contradictory view of "killing". I am simply pointing out the facts as they exist in the real world. Your misguided attempts to brush them under the rug will not make them just go away.

And what gives you the right to tell any potential mother that she cannot make her own decision?

God is in charge, not you.

I know abortion exists in the real world and I am trying to stop it as this is God's will. God also does not authorize women to kill their child for any reason. God is indeed in charge and we need to have courage to speak the truth in spite of what the world deems to be "moral" at any given point.

For example, the Germans once said it was ok to kill Jews and many people went along with horrible consequences. Now many people say it is ok to kill a child with the consequences that this has caused the greatest homicide ever seen in the history of man. God's patience is growing thin, per the Bible.

 

[noguru]

The 10 commandments clearly establish God's desire for us. However, God is not held to the 10 commandments because He is incapable of sinning or being unjust. Therefore, if he decided to have the Jews kill people it was a just decision.

God did not do the killing himself. He commanded people to do the killing for him. So if a person believes they are commanded by God to kill, then it is OK, according to your logic, for them to kill.

But these people went even a step further than a potential mother seeking abortion, they killed other people's children.