In defense of Cruciform; Traditions of Men

Traditio

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Often, Cruciform will answer, in reaction to various assertions of protestants ultimately asserting sola scriptura, the following: "'...the Word of God as interpreted according to the assumptions and opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean."

He says this constantly, in pretty much these exact words. It might come off as spam. Yet, and do consider this point, every time he says it, it's completely relevant to the conversation at hand and directly answers the point in response to which he wrote it.

Why does he "spam" this comment? Because Protestants spam their own sayings. "The Word of God alone" (referring, here, not to the Incarnate Word, but to the Bible).

Simply peruse the sayings of the protestants on this board; in answer to Catholics, they will, almost invariably, cite a given biblical verse (with little to no explanation), insist that it disagrees with some Catholic doctrine, and insist further that the Catholic doctrine is contrary to biblical teaching, being solely the product of "a man-made tradition."

All the while, the protestant who is speaking will seem utterly and ironically oblivious to the fact that he is interpreting the Biblical verse at hand (probably unconsciously) entirely through the lenses of his own given protestant sect, a sect whose tradition can be traced to a particular man or set of men in history. [Protestantism did not exist prior to the 1500s. Protestantism, by its very definition, is a man-made historical reaction to the Catholic Church. Protestantism, by its very definition, is parasitic upon Catholicism.]

The sheer hubris of the protestants never ceases to amaze me: they insist on quoting the Bible to us in "proof" of the error of our doctrines...as though Catholic scholars, in the roughly 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, have never come across or explained such verses? As though no Catholic scholar, in the roughly 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, has ever read the Bible?

No: the verses that the Protestants will insist on quoting only take on polemical significance when viewed through very specific lenses, in a very specific light, e.g., when interpreted in the way that Bob the protestant began to interpret it in, say, the late 1800s.

"Traditions of men" indeed!

Does Cruciform sound like a broken record? You bet he does...but only because this forum, and protestantism in general, is full of broken records. He keeps repeating himself because protestants insist on repeating their own litany of errors: "Traditions of men! The Word of God alone!" [Though it's apparently only spam when we do it. :rolleyes:]

Cruciform never sounds original because the protestants insist on rehashing their own tired slogans over and over and over again. What amazes me is not that he says these things, but that he hasn't become exhausted in having to hear protestants repeating themselves so often, and that he actually bothers to repeat himself so many times.

It gets old. Trust me on that one.
 
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Daniel1769

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So all non-Catholics are Protestants? I didn't know that.

I actually didn't know that because it isn't true. God has always had his people from Genesis onward. The Catholic church did not invent Christianity. There were Christians before it, and Christians who never joined it. Contrary to the popular myth, the Catholic Church never had a monopoly on Christianity. They were simply a pagan organization that tried to co-opt the figure of Jesus. Christians need to abandon this lie that everyone was Catholic before the Reformation.
 

Traditio

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So all non-Catholics are Protestants? I didn't know that.

I never made this claim.

The Catholic church did not invent Christianity. There were Christians before it, and Christians who never joined it.

Do you have any historical evidence for the bolded? Don't bother quoting the Bible, for reasons indicated in the OP.

They were simply a pagan organization that tried to co-opt the figure of Jesus.

Historical evidence?
 

genuineoriginal

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Often, Cruciform will answer, in reaction to various assertions of protestants ultimately asserting sola scriptura, the following: "'...the Word of God as interpreted according to the assumptions and opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean."

. . .

All the while, the protestant who is speaking will seem utterly and ironically oblivious to the fact that he is interpreting the Biblical verse at hand (probably unconsciously) entirely through the lenses of his own given protestant sect, a sect whose tradition can be traced to a specific man or set of men in history. [Protestantism did not exist prior to the 1500s. Protestantism, by its very definition, is a man-made historical reaction to the Catholic Church. Protestantism, by its very definition, is parasitic upon Catholicism.]
The ekklesia existed for almost 300 years before the formation of the Roman Catholic church in 325 CE.

According to the traditions of the ekklesia prior to the Roman Catholic church, the scriptures overrule the doctrines of men, therefore Cruciform is mistaken in pitting the doctrines of men against the scriptures.

The Protestant movement was created by God in order to correct many of the problems with the Roman Catholic church.

So far it has not been able to stop the Roman Catholic church from teaching idol worship.
 

Traditio

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The ekklesia existed for almost 300 years before the formation of the Roman Catholic church in 325 CE.

1. What historical evidence do you have that a new church (i.e., the Roman Catholic Church) was formed in 325 AD which was different from the church already existent prior to 325 AD?

2. Regardless of your answer to 1, what historical evidence do you have that there was a substantial change in doctrines at 325 AD?

If you appeal to the Council of Nicea for either, I'll answer:

A. That the bishops who convened at that council were already Catholic bishops.

1B. That the doctrines established at that council were already part of the deposit of the Catholic Faith, implicitly or explicitly, prior to 325 AD.

I'll also point out:

2B. That the doctrines established at that council are even widely accepted among protestants.

According to the traditions of the ekklesia prior to the Roman Catholic church, the scriptures overrule the doctrines of men, therefore Cruciform is mistaken in pitting the doctrines of men against the scriptures.

What evidence do you have for the things that you are saying? Again, I simply refuse to accept Bible verses for this discussion. What historical, non-biblical evidence do you have for your claims? Have you been reading some writings of Christians prior to the Council of Nicea?

The Protestant movement was created by God in order to correct many of the problems with the Roman Catholic church.

What evidence do you have for this? If you appeal to the Bible, refer to the OP.
 

Traditio

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Finally, against both GenuineOriginal and Daniel, I wish to point out that your claims ultimately don't get at the heart of what I am claiming and what Cruciform has claimed:

For all of your insistence that Catholics believe in "the traditions of men," the protestants have their own traditions and their own interpretational lenses, and those traditions and interpretational lenses can be traced back to very specific historical figures...who are not Jesus or the apostles.

This point is indisputable.
 

genuineoriginal

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1. What historical evidence do you have that a new church (i.e., the Roman Catholic Church) was formed in 325 AD which was different from the church already existent prior to 325 AD?
The change in leadership from the bishops of the churches to Constantine and the bishop of Rome.

2. Regardless of your answer to 1, what historical evidence do you have that there was a substantial change in doctrines at 325 AD?
The use of the Roman army against so-called heretics because they would not accept the rule of the Roman Catholic church.

If you appeal to the Council of Nicea for either, I'll answer:

A. That the bishops who convened at that council were already Catholic bishops.
No, they were Christian bishops, not Catholic bishops. There is a difference.

1B. That the doctrines established at that council were already part of the deposit of the Catholic Faith, implicitly or explicitly, prior to 325 AD.
The Arian beliefs were also part of the deposit of the Catholic Faith, and were so compelling that Constantine returned to them after the Council of Nicea.

I'll also point out:

2B. That the doctrines established at that council are even widely accepted among protestants.
Yes, Protestants believe the writings of Augustine the heretic more than the words of the Bible.

What evidence do you have for the things that you are saying? Again, I simply refuse to accept Bible verses for this discussion. What historical, non-biblical evidence do you have for your claims? Have you been reading some writings of Christians prior to the Council of Nicea?
Proof of my claims is the complete difference between the way Christians worshiped before 150 CE and the way Roman Catholics worship now.

What evidence do you have for this? If you appeal to the Bible, refer to the OP.
:think:
If you appeal to any of the practices that are done in the Roman Catholic church that are prohibited by the scriptures, such as the veneration of Mary and the worship of idols, then you have nothing to support you.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Finally, against both GenuineOriginal and Daniel, I wish to point out that your claims ultimately don't get at the heart of what I am claiming and what Cruciform has claimed:

For all of your insistence that Catholics believe in "the traditions of men," the protestants have their own traditions and their own interpretational lenses, and those traditions and interpretational lenses can be traced back to very specific historical figures...who are not Jesus or the apostles.

This point is indisputable.
Good thing I am not a Protestant and believe according to the beliefs of Christians from before the Roman Catholic church was formed under Constantine.
:chuckle:
 

Traditio

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The change in leadership from the bishops of the churches to Constantine and the bishop of Rome.

What evidence do you have for any of this? In particular, what evidence do you have for the bolded?

The use of the Roman army against so-called heretics because they would not accept the rule of the Roman Catholic church.

When? What's your evidence? What specific historical events do you have in mind?

No, they were Christian bishops, not Catholic bishops. There is a difference.

By answering in this way, you are begging the question (i.e., you are presupposing your conclusion, i.e., that there was not a Catholic Church prior to 325 AD).

At any rate, even ignoring this, this is a sheer terminological dispute. Let it be noted that there was a Church, that there were bishops of that Church, that these bishops were recognized as having magisterial/teaching authority to settle matters of doctrine, and that such authority was presupposed in the convening of the Council of Nicea.

The Arian beliefs were also part of the deposit of the Catholic Faith

A bunch of people believed in Arianism. That said, it clearly wasn't part of the deposit of faith, given that it was repudiated at Nicea by an ecumenical council of Catholic bishops.

Yes, Protestants believe the writings of Augustine the heretic more than the words of the Bible.

See the OP.

Proof of my claims is the complete difference between the way Christians worshiped before 150 CE and the way Roman Catholics worship now.

Your original claim was that the Catholic Church was established at 325 AD (a claim for which there is no historical evidence). Now you are pushing back the date to 150 AD?

At any rate, what is your evidence? What specific authors do you have in mind?
 

Traditio

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Good thing I am not a Protestant and believe according to the beliefs of Christians from before the Roman Catholic church was formed under Constantine.
:chuckle:

Call yourself whatever you want. What's indisputable is that your reading of the Bible is filtered through a "man made" hermeneutical lens...thus the reason that I simply refuse to engage in a debate on scriptural interpretation. Ultimately, it's going to be my interpretation vs. yours.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Often, Cruciform will answer, in reaction to various assertions of protestants ultimately asserting sola scriptura, the following: "'...the Word of God as interpreted according to the assumptions and opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean."
He is on a Protestant board, so will have to do better than tired shibboleth.

He says this constantly, in pretty much these exact words. It might come off as spam. Yet, and do consider this point, every time he says it, it's completely relevant to the conversation at hand and directly answers the point in response to which he wrote it.
No, his infraction was just. It is anti-dialogue.

Why does he "spam" this comment? Because Protestants spam their own sayings. "The Word of God alone" (referring, here, not to the Incarnate Word, but to the Bible).
I'm sure he'll appreciate you going to bat for him, but he is going to have to step up his game from now on.

Simply peruse the sayings of the protestants on this board; in answer to Catholics, they will, almost invariably, cite a given biblical verse (with little to no explanation), insist that it disagrees with some Catholic doctrine, and insist further that the Catholic doctrine is contrary to biblical teaching, being solely the product of "a man-made tradition."
...But not a catch-phrase that is one of only two bullets, which doesn't effectively address the concern:
3. Thou SHALL NOT be intentionally... unnecessarily disruptive...
5. Thou SHALL NOT ... be a "thread pest" ... means you pop into...threads...make a mocking comment with no other purpose than to marginalize...
7. Thou SHALL NOT troll ...statements merely to get a rise out of the membership and cause trouble...

Please do not post SPAM ... or you will be banned. Spam is making posts with just a word or two...
All the while, the protestant who is speaking will seem utterly and ironically oblivious to the fact that he is interpreting the Biblical verse at hand (probably unconsciously) entirely through the lenses of his own given protestant sect, a sect whose tradition can be traced to a specific man or set of men in history. [Protestantism did not exist prior to the 1500s. Protestantism, by its very definition, is a man-made historical reaction to the Catholic Church. Protestantism, by its very definition, is parasitic upon Catholicism.
It is not fine simply to spam the same thing over and over. It isn't dialogue/discussion.

The sheer hubris of the protestants never ceases to amaze me: they insist on quoting the Bible to us in "proof" of the error of our doctrines...as though Catholic scholars, in the roughly 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, have never come across or explained such verses? As though no Catholic scholar, in the roughly 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, has ever read the Bible?
:confused: This is a 'Protestant' website... :liberals: And a 'Smack of Truth' website.


No: the verses that the Protestants will insist on quoting only take on polemical significance when viewed through very specific lenses, in a very specific light, e.g., when interpreted in the way that Bob the protestant began to interpret it in, say, the late 1800s.
Are we still talking about Cruci and his infraction or did we branch out to the Reformation and Martin Luther?

"Traditions of men" indeed!
"...according to...your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean."
It doesn't even address the concern. It is meant to be an accusation and disdain. I often tell him that his is just as 'tradition of men' (true, right?), just as much man-made (true?) and just as much chosen by him. "Recent." Churches have been splitting or disassociating with Roman Catholicism for much longer than 'recent.' Because the statement is loaded, accusatory, mindlessly repetitive, it is a pat spam answer that doesn't meaningful address the question or concern at all. Lately, Cruciform is doing not much else but resorting to spam and trolling. It isn't necessary or needed on TOL.

Does Cruciform sound like a broken record? You bet he does...but only because this forum, and protestantism in general, is full of broken records. He keeps repeating himself because protestants insist on repeating their own litany of errors: "Traditions of men! The Word of God alone!" [Though it's apparently only spam when we do it. :rolleyes:]
TheologyOnLine is for dialogue. That rule has been trampled!

Cruciform never sounds original because the protestants insist on rehashing their own tired slogans over and over and over again. What amazes me is not that he says these things, but that he hasn't become exhausted in having to hear protestants repeating themselves so often, and that he actually bothers to repeat himself so many times.
:nono: "One guy." No other Catholic was banned for doing spam/troll. Protestants (and 'Other') have had many infractions on TOL for trolling and spam. He, nor you are being treated poorly or unfairly.
It gets old. Trust me on that one.
If 20 of you post "...according to...your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean" it isn't the same as one guy posting it all the time. He's got about 5 catch-phrases and 20 links and that's all the dialogue he is good for. NOW, look at my post. Did you feel ignored? Marginalized? Did I make you feel that I listened to what you said? Did I make you feel as if I tried to substantially address your points and concerns? See the difference? Yes? In Him, -Lon
 

Traditio

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Lon:

I wish to preface the following comments with this observation: you are taking my posting as being a protest against Cruciform's infraction. This is, of course, absolutely true. I was positively furious when I saw why Cruciform was banned, wrote the OP in that emotional mindset (think "increased heart rate, red face, scowling, etc"...seriously, if you want to read the OP as it was written, imagine me either speaking in a biting sarcastic tone, growling out the words of the OP in a chilling, icy tone, or otherwise occasionally just spitting out certain of the phrases at the reader in clear contempt), and the OP is a reaction to his banning.

Nonetheless, the OP is not specifically about his infraction. The OP is about the comment that he "spams." My contention is that it makes sense that he does so.

If my answer to A is B, and you insist on saying A, and only A, over and over again, it makes perfect sense for me to repeat B.

"1+1=3."
"No, it doesn't. 1+1=2. Learn math."
"But 1+1=3."
"Again, no, it doesn't. 1+1=2. Learn math."
"BUT 1+1=3!!!"

I mean, really, what do you expect?

Lon said:
He is on a Protestant board, so will have to do better than tired shibboleth.

Again, his comment makes sense. If you want me to say something other than "Learn math," then say something other than "1+1=3."

No, his infraction was just. It is anti-dialogue.

So is repeating the same old tired slogans and making the same old tired points ad nauseam. Yet, somehow, protestants don't get banned every time they use the phrase "traditions of men."

...But not a catch-phrase that is one of only two bullets, which doesn't effectively address the concern:

It addresses the concern effectively every single time. Show me a single posting in which his answer wasn't spot on. If you answer that the posting to which he was responding, for which he received an infraction, is such a posting, then I'll answer in this way:

That to which he was replying: "Correction. The Final Authority is the Word of God plus nothing" (Bright Raven).

His answer:

"'...the Word of God as interpreted according to the assumptions and opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean."

In fact, this instance entirely supports my point. How many times do you hear protestants spamming this mindless slogan? And his answer, which he "spams" in response to it, is positively spot on, and it's much more eloquent than simply saying: "No, you don't."

It is not fine simply to spam the same thing over and over. It isn't dialogue/discussion.

I agree. Bright Raven's comment didn't contribute anything meaningful or original to the discussion. :rolleyes:

Are we still talking about Cruci and his infraction or did we branch out to the Reformation and Martin Luther?

My point is that Cruciform's "spammed" comment is essentially correct and appropriate in the contexts in which he "spams" it.

It doesn't even address the concern. It is meant to be an accusation and disdain. I often tell him that his is just as 'tradition of men' (true, right?), just as much man-made (true?) and just as much chosen by him.

I believe that your answer is confused. He's parodying the protestants. The protestants claim these things about the Catholic Church, and that they rely on the Bible alone. His answer? "No, you don't. You rely on the Bible insofar as interpreted by such and such a protestant tradition, etc."

Lately, Cruciform is doing not much else but resorting to spam and trolling. It isn't necessary or needed on TOL.

If you guys want a different answer, then start saying something different. If you put in the same input, then you can only expect the same output. :idunno:

If 20 of you post "...according to...your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect,' you mean" it isn't the same as one guy posting it all the time.

I could start saying that. I just don't have the time or the patience to bother. But let it be noted that I completely agree with Cruciform saying it. It's entirely appropriate to your points.

He's got about 5 catch-phrases

Because protestants repeatedly make about the same 5 points. Over and over and over again. It's positively mind-numbing.

and 20 links and that's all the dialogue he is good for.

Because protestants regularly make the same points. Over and over and over again. Those 20 links pretty much cover it.

You want a different link or a different point? Then say something that hasn't been said a billion times before. :rolleyes:
 
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Traditio

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Let all in the thread note: I have no intention of discussing Biblical verses. If you want to have a discussion about biblical interpretation, I request that you do it elsewhere.
 
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