If, Like Jesus, People Are Born NOT Dead in Sin, Then . . .

[Epoisses]

We are not born spiritually alive. We are born spiritually dead in sin and trespasses. This is why the new birth happens later in life when we are awakened to our lost condition by the Holy Spirit who enables us to believe in Christ and receive forgiveness of sin.

 

[TFTn5280]

We are not born spiritually alive. We are born spiritually dead in sin and trespasses. This is why the new birth happens later in life when we are awakened to our lost condition by the Holy Spirit who enables us to believe in Christ and receive forgiveness of sin.

Romans 7.9 "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

As you know, if you've been reading my stuff, I don't believe in any sort of actual spiritual death, as if part of what makes you you can be alive while other parts are dead. I think instead that "death" is the trajectory of all human life and this because of sin, and it has been since the fall, and were it not for the undoing resurrection of Jesus Christ, it would and will end in the absolute, certain return of humanity to that which God had used to create us in the first place, and that is absolutely nothing. Death in the Bible was understood to be the end of one's existence, in any form ~ and that means no body left, no mind or awareness left, no spirit left, no soul left, no nothing left ~ because nothing means no-thing whatsoever. So that is my belief and I believe that's what the bible teaches.

But let's talk about what you believe. In his statement above, Paul says that he was once "alive" and later "died," and that that death was contingent upon and the result of his conscious, cognitive digression into sin, which is consistent with everything else we read in scripture: the wages of sin being death. My question to you is, what is that death to which he speaks, and what did he mean when he says he was alive prior to experiencing it?

Thanks in advance for considering my question.

 

[Epoisses]

Romans 7.9 "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

As you know, if you've been reading my stuff, I don't believe in any sort of actual spiritual death, as if part of what makes you you can be alive while other parts are dead. I think instead that "death" is the trajectory of all human life and this because of sin, and it has been since the fall, and were it not for the undoing resurrection of Jesus Christ, it would and will end in the absolute, certain return of humanity to that which God had used to create us in the first place, and that is absolutely nothing. Death in the Bible was understood to be the end of one's existence, in any form ~ and that means no body left, no mind or awareness left, no spirit left, no soul left, no nothing left ~ because nothing means no-thing whatsoever. So that is my belief and I believe that's what the bible teaches.

But let's talk about what you believe. In his statement above, Paul says that he was once "alive" and later "died," and that that death was contingent upon and the result of his conscious, cognitive digression into sin, which is consistent with everything else we read in scripture: the wages of sin being death. My question to you is, what is that death to which he speaks, and what did he mean when he says he was alive prior to experiencing it?

Thanks in advance for considering my question.

He was alive in his delusion of righteousness! Please you can't take one word and build your whole understanding around it, that's just juvenile.

 

[TFTn5280]

He was alive in his delusion of righteousness! Please you can't take one word and build your whole understanding around it, that's just juvenile.

And in no way relative to anything I have done. Thanks for your answer.

 

[Samie]

We are not born spiritually alive. We are born spiritually dead in sin and trespasses. This is why the new birth happens later in life when we are awakened to our lost condition by the Holy Spirit who enables us to believe in Christ and receive forgiveness of sin.

Your tenor in an earlier post is that the objective reality of the new birth did happen when Jesus resurrected. New birth happened when Jesus resurrected but born spiritually dead in sin? Can you explain what happened between Jesus' resurrection and man's physical birth that made people to be born spiritually dead in sin?

 

[Epoisses]

Your tenor in an earlier post is that the objective reality of the new birth did happen when Jesus resurrected. New birth happened when Jesus resurrected but born spiritually dead in sin? Can you explain what happened between Jesus' resurrection and man's physical birth that made people to be born spiritually dead in sin?

Our inheritance that we receive from Adam is given to us at natural birth which is a fallen nature and a sin corrupted body. Our inheritance from Christ is given to us in stages. Our new spiritual life is given at the second birth and our incorruptible and spiritual body is not given to us until the 2nd coming. The natural comes first and then the spiritual and for many who never come to repentance they never receive their new life in Christ. You can't honestly believe that the gang banger fueled on sex, drugs and violence is born again. That's going to be a hard sell Samie.

 

[Ben Masada]

We are not born spiritually alive. We are born spiritually dead in sin and trespasses. This is why the new birth happens later in life when we are awakened to our lost condition by the Holy Spirit who enables us to believe in Christ and receive forgiveness of sin.

Right! We are born physically alive. Any thing spiritual is developed with age and time. According to Ecclesiastes 7:29, the Lord has created man plain, just normal, regular but he has engaged in too much reasoning of all sort, good and evil. It means that man is neither born in sin or perfect. Only after the age of 13, he becomes responsible for all evil caused. That's called Bar Mitzvah. That's when he becomes liable for his actions. As for forgiveness of sins, only after he learns how to handle the divine gift of the Law for his own good or otherwise.

 

[Samie]

Our inheritance that we receive from Adam is given to us at natural birth which is a fallen nature and a sin corrupted body.

Scripture please . . .

Our inheritance from Christ is given to us in stages.

Scripture please . . .

Our new spiritual life is given at the second birth

What came first, spiritual birth or physical birth?

and our incorruptible and spiritual body is not given to us until the 2nd coming.

Agree.

The natural comes first and then the spiritual

Disagree.

and for many who never come to repentance they never receive their new life in Christ.

Disagree. Can a leopard change its spots? You fault your dogs because they bark instead of purr?

You can't honestly believe that the gang banger fueled on sex, drugs and violence is born again.

Can you give the biblical definition of "born again"?

 

[Epoisses]

You don't believe scripture Samie so it won't help. Your pet theories are your god! You believe the worst sinners are born again and all they have to do is choose to overcome sin. It's just ridiculous.

 

[Samie]

You don't believe scripture Samie so it won't help. Your pet theories are your god! You believe the worst sinners are born again and all they have to do is choose to overcome sin. It's just ridiculous.

It's what Jesus wants for His Body parts to do:

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[njspolk]

I think that there needs to be a distinction made between Wesleyanism and Arminianism. Wesleyans are not always Arminians, especially when it comes to Atonement and Righteousness. Wesleyans believe that we may choose to accept or deny Christ's salvation, but it is through the Prevenient Grace of Christ that allows us to choose Christ and act righteously. It is a reciprocal relationship, but one that does not put too much emphasis on God or humanity. Also, John Wesley was an Arminian, but most of his current successors are not. Just wanted to defend Wesley and put Wesleyanism on the table

 

[Epoisses]

So many Christians today think that overcoming sin is choosing the good and resisting the evil. Their whole experience is based on will power with the strong willed Christians thinking they are more righteous than the weak willed Christians. Faith, which is what God desires us to have is not will power or making the right choices. Any victory that we have over sin comes from God and God will often let us flounder in sin because our faith is weak. Jesus spoke of some as having weak faith and others as having great faith so faith is what goes up and down in our walk with Christ. The righteousness of Christ is perfect so it never goes up and down but our connection to it which is by faith often does. Having faith also enables us to make the right choices for those who are so focused on choosing.

 

[Samie]

So many Christians today think that overcoming sin is choosing the good and resisting the evil.

Since people are enjoined to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), and overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) but will be seated with Christ Who Himself is an overcomer, in His throne (Rev 3:21), what do you think overcoming is if it is not choosing to do good instead of doing evil?

Their whole experience is based on will power with the strong willed Christians thinking they are more righteous than the weak willed Christians.

That's pharisaical attitude.

Faith, which is what God desires us to have is not will power or making the right choices.

God did not just simply desire people to have faith: He gave faith to every man (Rom 12:3).

Any victory that we have over sin comes from God and God will often let us flounder in sin because our faith is weak.

I don't think so. Instead, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:17).

Jesus spoke of some as having weak faith and others as having great faith so faith is what goes up and down in our walk with Christ. The righteousness of Christ is perfect so it never goes up and down but our connection to it which is by faith often does. Having faith also enables us to make the right choices for those who are so focused on choosing.

God gave people faith so they can please Him (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4).