CherubRam
New member
Close enough. I will think about it.
If Evolution
- Thread starter CherubRam
- Start date
Close enough. I will think about it.
Nope, not how it happened.
Yes, in the second creation story.
And that story says man was formed before any plants were growing.
However, the first creation story says man was created on Day 6 and the earth brought forth plants in Day 3.
So both cannot be literal history, as the timelines are mutually exclusive.
There is the added complexity that the Scriptures tell us that God is spirit. So what do you mean by in his likeness?
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And, of course, the Bible does not tell us how He created. The Bible doesn’t say “God created, but not by evolution!”
Don’t be misled by preschool memories of the flannelgraph. See the evidence that God has given you in nature.
That is all you have?
Of course, the “very good” was a comment on “everything that He had made,” not on the process.
No, you have not even come close to supporting your claim.
6days
New member
You might believe in a different god?
The God of the Bible would not call death an enemy... yet use death, pain, suffering and extinctions to create.
The God of the Bible went to the cross to defeat death which entered our world after man sinned.
You seem to think you have some special insight into what God will and will not do. The passage you offered has nothing to do with the topic.
Prooftexting with one verse out of context and extrapolating from there is a way to pretend to prove things. You are grasping at straws that are not there.
Actually, evolution relies not on death, pain, suffering, and extinctions. It relies on procreation and success, good things.
Why does it bother you that God may have used evolution?
CherubRam
New member
I see the problem. Hebrew does not always translate well into English. Here, I rewrote it for the English language.
Genesis 2
5 Before there was any man to work the ground, no shrub had yet appeared upon the earth, and no plant had yet sprung up, because Yahwah, God of the living had not sent rain upon the earth, 6 but a mist came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.
7 Afterward Yahwah, God of the living formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
CherubRam
New member
The idea that spirits have no form comes from the entertainment industry.
Actually, the idea is consistent with the Bible.
What is the shape and form of wind, breath, or moving air?
Are you aware that the Greek word for spirit is the same word as wind?
And it is the same for Hebrew?
Here is the Hebrew word translated spirit in:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 7307 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
xwr from (07306)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ruwach TWOT - 2131a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
roo'-akh Noun Feminine
Definition
wind, breath, mind, spirit
breath
wind
of heaven
quarter (of wind), side
breath of air
air, gas
vain, empty thing
spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
courage
temper, anger
impatience, patience
spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
prophetic spirit
spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
spirit (as seat of emotion)
desire
sorrow, trouble
spirit
as seat or organ of mental acts
rarely of the will
as seat especially of moral character
Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
as endowing men with various gifts
as energy of life
as manifest in the Shekinah glory
never referred to as a depersonalised force
NAS Word Usage - Total: 375
air 2, anger 1, blast 2, breath 31, breathless* 1, cool 1, courage 1, despondency* 1, exposed 1, grief* 1, heart 1, inspired 1, mind 3, motives 1, points 1, quick-tempered* 1, side 4, sides 2, Spirit 76, spirit 127, spirits 3, strength 1, temper 2, thoughts* 1, trustworthy* 1, wind 98, winds 7, windy 2, wrath 1
And in Greek:
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4151 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
pneuma from (4154)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pneuma 6:332,876
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pnyoo'-mah Noun Neuter
Definition
the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
never referred to as a depersonalised force
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
the soul
a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a life giving spirit
a human soul that has left the body
a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
a movement of air (a gentle blast)
of the wind, hence the wind itself
breath of nostrils or mouth
NAS Word Usage - Total: 380
breath 3, Spirit 239, spirit 103, spirits 32, spiritual 1, wind 1, winds 1
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Yes, it is necessary to rewrite the Bible to say that the the second creation story has man formed after plants.
The way it is written in the actual text, it is very clear that man was formed before any plants were growing.
The NET Bible notes are very good for this text:
13 tn Heb “Now every sprig of the field before it was.” The verb forms, although appearing to be imperfects, are technically preterites coming after the adverb טֶּרֶם (terem). The word order (conjunction + subject + predicate) indicates a disjunctive clause, which provides background information for the following narrative (as in 1:2). Two negative clauses are given (“before any sprig…”, and “before any cultivated grain” existed), followed by two causal clauses explaining them, and then a positive circumstantial clause is given – again dealing with water as in 1:2 (water would well up).
14 tn The first term, שִׂיחַ (siakh), probably refers to the wild, uncultivated plants (see Gen 21:15; Job 30:4,7); whereas the second, עֵשֶׂב (’esev), refers to cultivated grains. It is a way of saying: “back before anything was growing.”
15 tn The two causal clauses explain the first two disjunctive clauses: There was no uncultivated, general growth because there was no rain, and there were no grains because there was no man to cultivate the soil.
If you think the Bible is in error, you should not believe it.
If you think Darwinsm is correct, you should defend that.
What you have contributed so far is useless.
Sure, it does.
Which is, of course, nonsense.
The Biblical account is irreconcilable with evolution.
Oh, you want to talk science now?
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CherubRam
New member
Your reading skills are poor.
[FONT="]Genesis 2[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 Now the Lord God [/FONT][FONT="]had[/FONT][FONT="] planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Genesis 2[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
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The error is in thinking these two creation stories should be read as literal history.
For those whose goals include declaring the two creation stories are literal history, what I have provided is worse than useless.
There are two accounts, with different orders and methods of creation.
So the two Biblical accounts are irreconcilable with each other as literal history.
So they aren’t literal history.
This is what we call translation shopping (and attacking the messenger).
A few translations mistranslate that verse to try to reconcile the timelines.
The NET Bible notes again:
sn The Lord God planted an orchard. Nothing is said of how the creation of this orchard took place. A harmonization with chap. 1 might lead to the conclusion that it was by decree, prior to the creation of human life. But the narrative sequence here in chap. 2 suggests the creation of the garden followed the creation of the man. Note also the past perfect use of the perfect in the relative clause in the following verse.
And
tn Or “fashioned.” To harmonize the order of events with the chronology of chapter one, some translate the prefixed verb form with vav (ו) consecutive as a past perfect (“had formed,” cf. NIV) here. (In chapter one the creation of the animals preceded the creation of man; here the animals are created after the man.) However, it is unlikely that the Hebrew construction can be translated in this way in the middle of this pericope, for the criteria for unmarked temporal overlay are not present here. See S. R. Driver, A Treatise on the Use of the Tenses in Hebrew, 84-88, and especially R. Buth, “Methodological Collision between Source Criticism and Discourse Analysis,” Biblical Hebrew and Discourse Linguistics, 138-54. For a contrary viewpoint see IBHS 552-53 §33.2.3 and C. J. Collins, “The Wayyiqtol as ‘Pluperfect’: When and Why,” TynBul 46 (1995): 117-40.
To see how many translators were willing to mistranslate the text to try to reconcile the two creation stories, see below:
KJ21 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.
ASV And Jehovah God planted a garden eastward, in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
AMP And the Lord God planted a garden (oasis) in the east, in Eden (delight, land of happiness); and He put the man whom He had formed (created) there.
AMPC And the Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden [delight]; and there He put the man whom He had formed (framed, constituted).
BRG ¶ And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
CSB The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he placed the man he had formed.
CEB The Lord God planted a garden in Eden in the east and put there the human he had formed.
CJB Adonai, God, planted a garden toward the east, in ‘Eden, and there he put the person whom he had formed.
CEV The Lord made a garden in a place called Eden, which was in the east, and he put the man there.
DARBY And Jehovah Elohim planted a garden in Eden eastward, and there put Man whom he had formed.
DRA And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed.
ERV Then the Lord God planted a garden in the East, in a place named Eden. He put the man he made in that garden.
ESV And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
ESVUK And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
EXB ·Then the Lord God [or The Lord God had] planted a garden in the east [C probably east of Palestine], in a place called Eden [C related to a word meaning “luxurious”], and put the man he had formed into it.
GNV And the Lord God planted a garden Eastward in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had made.
GW The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east. That’s where he put the man whom he had formed.
GNT Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he had formed.
HCSB The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there He placed the man He had formed.
ICB Then the Lord God planted a garden in the East, in a place called Eden. He put the man he had formed in that garden.
ISV The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, where he placed the man whom he had formed.
JUB ¶ And the LORD God had planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
KJV And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
AKJV And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
LEB And Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
TLB Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, to the east, and placed in the garden the man he had formed.
MSG Then God planted a garden in Eden, in the east. He put the Man he had just made in it. God made all kinds of trees grow from the ground, trees beautiful to look at and good to eat. The Tree-of-Life was in the middle of the garden, also the Tree-of-Knowledge-of-Good-and-Evil.
MEV The Lord God planted a garden in the east, in Eden, and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
NOG Yahweh Elohim planted a garden in Eden, in the east. That’s where he put the man whom he had formed.
NABRE The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and placed there the man whom he had formed.
NASB The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
NCV Then the Lord God planted a garden in the east, in a place called Eden, and put the man he had formed into it.
NET The Lord God planted an orchard in the east, in Eden; and there he placed the man he had formed.
NIRV The Lord God had planted a garden in the east in Eden. He put in the garden the man he had formed.
NIV Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.
NIVUK Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.
NKJV The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.
NLV The Lord God planted a garden to the east in Eden. He put the man there whom He had made.
NLT Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he placed the man he had made.
NRSV And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
NRSVA And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
NRSVACE And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
NRSVCE And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
OJB And Hashem Elohim planted a gan (garden) eastward in Eden; and there He put the adam whom He had formed.
RSV And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
RSVCE And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
TLV Then Adonai Elohim planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there He put the man whom He had formed.
VOICE The Eternal God planted a garden in the east in Eden—a place of utter delight—and placed the man whom He had sculpted there.
WEB Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
WYC Forsooth the Lord God planted at the beginning (the) paradise of liking, wherein he set man whom he had formed. (And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and he put the man there whom he had formed.)
YLT And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed;
Just a few.
It is the same with Genesis 2:19, just a few translators were willing to mistranslate in an effort to reconcile the timelines of the two creation stories:
KJ21 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them; and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
ASV And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
AMP So the Lord God formed out of the ground every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
AMPC And out of the ground the Lord God formed every [wild] beast and living creature of the field and every bird of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them; and whatever Adam called every living creature, that was its name.
BRG And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
CSB The Lord God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
CEB So the Lord God formed from the fertile land all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky and brought them to the human to see what he would name them. The human gave each living being its name.
CJB So from the ground Adonai, God, formed every wild animal and every bird that flies in the air, and he brought them to the person to see what he would call them. Whatever the person would call each living creature, that was to be its name.
CEV So the Lord took some soil and made animals and birds. He brought them to the man to see what names he would give each of them. Then the man named the tame animals and the birds and the wild animals. That’s how they got their names. None of these was the right kind of partner for the man.
DARBY And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought [them] to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.
DRA And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name.
ERV The Lord God used dust from the ground and made every animal in the fields and every bird in the air. He brought all these animals to the man, and the man gave them all a name.
ESV Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
ESVUK Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
EXB From the ground God formed every ·wild animal [L animal of the field] and every bird in the ·sky [heavens], and he brought them to the man ·so the man could name them [L to see what he would call them]. Whatever the man called each living thing, that became its name.
GNV So the Lord God formed of the earth every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heaven, and brought them unto the man to see how he would call them: for howsoever the man named the living creature, so was the name thereof.
GW The Lord God had formed all the wild animals and all the birds out of the ground. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called each creature became its name.
GNT So he took some soil from the ground and formed all the animals and all the birds. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and that is how they all got their names.
HCSB So the Lord God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
ICB From the ground God formed every wild animal and every bird in the sky. He brought them to the man so the man could name them. Whatever the man called each living thing, that became its name.
ISV After the Lord God formed from the ground every wild animal and every bird that flies, he brought each of them to the man to see what he would call it. Whatever the man called each living creature became its name.
JUB And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living soul, that was its name.
KJV And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
AKJV And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
LEB And out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and he brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called that living creature was its name.
TLB So the Lord God formed from the soil every kind of animal and bird, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever he called them, that was their name. But still there was no proper helper for the man.
MSG God said, “It’s not good for the Man to be alone; I’ll make him a helper, a companion.” So God formed from the dirt of the ground all the animals of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the Man to see what he would name them. Whatever the Man called each living creature, that was its name. The Man named the cattle, named the birds of the air, named the wild animals; but he didn’t find a suitable companion.
MEV Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
NOG Yahweh Elohim had formed all the wild animals and all the birds out of the ground. Then he brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called each creature became its name.
NABRE So the Lord God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each living creature was then its name.
NASB Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
NCV From the ground God formed every wild animal and every bird in the sky, and he brought them to the man so the man could name them. Whatever the man called each living thing, that became its name.
NET The Lord God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
NIRV The Lord God had formed all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He had made all of them out of the ground. He brought them to the man to see what names he would give them. And the name the man gave each living creature became its name.
NIV Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
NIVUK Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
NKJV Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.
NLV Out of the ground the Lord God made every animal of the field and every bird of the sky. He brought them to the man to find out what he would call them. And whatever the man called a living thing, that was its name.
NLT So the Lord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one.
NRSV So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
NRSVA So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
NRSVACE So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
NRSVCE So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
OJB And out of the adamah Hashem Elohim formed every beast of the sadeh, and every oph HaShomayim; and brought them unto the adam to see what he would name them; and whatsoever the adam named kol nefesh chayyah, that was shmo.
RSV So out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
RSVCE So out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
TLV Adonai Elohim had formed from the ground every animal of the field and every flying creature of the sky, so He brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called them—each living creature—that was its name.
VOICE So out of the same ground the man was made from, the Eternal God sculpted every sort of animal and every kind of bird that flies up in the sky. Then He brought them to the man and gave him the authority to name each creature as he saw fit: whatever he decided to call it, that became its name.
WEB Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature became its name.
WYC And therefore when all living beasts of [the] earth, and all the volatiles of (the) heaven(s,) were formed of [the] earth, the Lord God brought those to Adam, that he should see what he should call those; for all thing that Adam called of living soul, that is the name thereof. (And so when all the living beasts of the earth, and all the birds of the air, were formed from the earth, the Lord God brought them to Adam, to see what he would call them; for whatever name that Adam called each thing with a living soul, that is its name.)
YLT And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that [is] its name
We know. You think the Bible is wrong.
:AMR:
We know. You reject the historicity of the Bible.
No, I think the view that these are literal history is wrong.
Strange that you don’t know the difference between those positions.
Nope, I reject a claim that these two creation stories must be viewed as literal history.
And I note that trying to view them both as literal history is forcing some here to rewrite or mistranslate the text.
I should also note,CB, that your mistranslations also don’t fit the context.
The second creation story says that there were no domesticated plants growing because there was no man to till the ground.
And the second creation story says man was alone so God formed the animals.
In short, the mistranslations only exist to try to fit the first and the second creation stories together, and they fail on multiple levels.
6days
New member
it would not bother me if God had created by an an evolutionary process. However He tells us He spoke creation into existence and did so over the course of six days. The Gospel... and the Hebrew context both demand a young creation where death entered our world after sin. (Death to all 'nepesh' creatures).cobra2003 said:
6days
New member
Jesus quotes fromGen. 1 And 2 referring to it as the one creation account. It is mostly modern-day evolutionist trying to add time into God's words that imagine there are two separate accounts. Genesis 2 compliments the first chapter and is not contradictory in any way.cobra2003 said:
It is strange that evolutionists are so eager attempting to destroy the foundation of the gospel and every Christian doctrine which is found in the first few chapters of Genesis.
By the way Genesis 1 provides the chronology of the six days of the creation event. Genesis 2 is mostly providing details of how the creation applies to humanity. The two chapters are consistent and complement each other.