I NOT ROBOT

[asilentskeptic]

From the mock poster: (emboldened emphasis mine)

"In a world where freedom was outlawed.

...the dark forces Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Impassibility and Immutability closed in.

Are you still free?"

Have the open theists who promote views such as those quoted above even considered the consequences of their words? If God really turns out to be all of these things, how will he react to the characterization of his attributes as "dark"?

I don't think he will mind!


Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Eli_Cash]

I don't think he will mind!


Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I think He will when one uses his essential attributes to accuse him. Especially when the one doing so claims to be a Christian.

 

[Prisca]

Is there a Riff Trax on that one yet?

 

[TomO]

I think He will when one uses his essential attributes to accuse him. Especially when the one doing so claims to be a Christian.

:think: That depends on whether HE gets so wrapped up in the Dogma which man surrounds HIM with that HE forgets to look at the Heart.......

:nono: I don't think we have to worry about that.

 

[Lighthouse]

Seeing as how the Bible never says He is any of those things, we have nothing to worry about, Eli.

 

[Eli_Cash]

Seeing as how the Bible never says He is any of those things, we have nothing to worry about, Eli.

Omnipresence

Psalm 139:7-12 KJV
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

1 Kings 8:27 KJV
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Jeremiah 23:23-24 KJV
Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Acts 17:27-28 KJV
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Omniscience

Hebrews 4:13 KJV
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Omnipotence

Job 42:2 KJV
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Revelation 19:6 KJV
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[Eli_Cash]

:think: That depends on whether HE gets so wrapped up in the Dogma which man surrounds HIM with that HE forgets to look at the Heart.......

:nono: I don't think we have to worry about that.

The heart is precisely what I'm talking about. There is a real difference between not understanding that God has the attributes of Omnipotence, etc., and claiming that these attributes are "dark forces". The former is error, the latter is presumptuous almost to the point of being blasphemy.

 

[Lighthouse]

Omnipresence

Psalm 139:7-12 KJV
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

1 Kings 8:27 KJV
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Jeremiah 23:23-24 KJV
Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Acts 17:27-28 KJV
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Omniscience

Hebrews 4:13 KJV
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Omnipotence

Job 42:2 KJV
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Revelation 19:6 KJV
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

None of those say that He either is present everywhere all at once, that He knows everything, even if it does not exist, or that He can do anything, even that which is against His character or attributes.

 

[TomO]

The heart is precisely what I'm talking about. There is a real difference between not understanding that God has the attributes of Omnipotence, etc., and claiming that these attributes are "dark forces". The former is error, the latter is presumptuous almost to the point of being blasphemy.

Am I to understand you are a worthy Judge of mens hearts?

lain: If ones understanding of omnipotence is that it states GOD uses HIS Children as puppets on strings then you would be right in considering this to not be an attribute of OUR LORD and to claim such an attribute to be a dark force.

:nono: Stop judging by mere appearences and make a right judgement.

So tell me Eli....do those who lack understanding of the Trinity risk Judgement as well?

:noid:

 

[Eli_Cash]

None of those say that He either is present everywhere all at once,

Acts 17:27-28 KJV
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
(emphasis mine)

that He knows everything, even if it does not exist,

Perhaps not, but this one does.

Matthew 11:21 KJV
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

or that He can do anything, even that which is against His character or attributes.

Why would he do that which is against his character and attributes? That would contradict his omnipotence, not reinforce it.

 

[Eli_Cash]

Am I to understand you are a worthy Judge of mens hearts?

Are you worthy to judge God's character?

lain: If ones understanding of omnipotence is that it states GOD uses HIS Children as puppets on strings then you would be right in considering this to not be an attribute of OUR LORD and to claim such an attribute to be a dark force.

Psalm 17:13-14
Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.
(emphasis mine)

:nono: Stop judging by mere appearences and make a right judgement.

Who are you to judge how I'm judging?

So tell me Eli....do those who lack understanding of the Trinity risk Judgement as well?

:noid:

There is a difference between not understanding the Trinity and claiming that it is evil. The former is confusion, the latter is blasphemy.

 

[Lighthouse]

Acts 17:27-28 KJV
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
(emphasis mine)

Still doesn't say what you want it to say. Even the "every one of us" isn't everyone who is alive. It's everyone who is in Him.

Perhaps not, but this one does.

Matthew 11:21 KJV
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

No it doesn't. This verse gives no one any reason to believe that He knows who is going to win the 2009 Super Bowl.

Why would he do that which is against his character and attributes? That would contradict his omnipotence, not reinforce it.

No it wouldn't.

 

[TomO]

Are you worthy to judge God's character?

lain: That's quite a stretch you are making there.

Who are you to judge how I'm judging?

Yes.....now I understand. Hypocrisy often leads to red rep scores. :think:

There is a difference between not understanding the Trinity and claiming that it is evil. The former is confusion, the latter is blasphemy.

Whatever.....have fun walking your Dogma. :yawn:

 

[Eli_Cash]

Still doesn't say what you want it to say. Even the "every one of us" isn't everyone who is alive. It's everyone who is in Him.

He was addressing non-believers there.

No it doesn't. This verse gives no one any reason to believe that He knows who is going to win the 2009 Super Bowl.

It shows that he knows things that aren't the case, or as you put it "that don't exist". Tyre and Sidon did not see Jesus' works, and yet he was competent to speak of how they would have reacted if they had. Unless you think he was just guessing.

No it wouldn't.

Yes it would. If God's omnipotence is his ability to do anything that he wants, then if he did what he did not want, what is against his character, it could only be by constraint. Thus he would not be all powerful.

 

[Lighthouse]

He was addressing non-believers there.

Care to back that up?

It shows that he knows things that aren't the case, or as you put it "that don't exist". Tyre and Sidon did not see Jesus' works, and yet he was competent to speak of how they would have reacted if they had. Unless you think he was just guessing.

:bang:

Because He knew Tyre and Sidon.:dunce::duh: They existed at one time. They were over.

There is no reason to believe that God knows things that have no possibility in previous or current existence. I.e. things that have yet to happen [2009 Super Bowl].

Yes it would. If God's omnipotence is his ability to do anything that he wants, then if he did what he did not want, what is against his character, it could only be by constraint. Thus he would not be all powerful.

What about His attributes? Could He act against His attributes? For example, I do not have the ability to fly because I do not have the attributes that would allow me to fly. So I cannot fly. However, if I was all powerful, would I be able to fly without the attributes needed to fly?

 

[Eli_Cash]

Care to back that up?

The passage is in Paul's sermon on Mars hill, which, if you will recall, was directed to a pagan gentile audience.

:bang:

Because He knew Tyre and Sidon.:dunce::duh: They existed at one time. They were over.

But those works were never performed in them, and yet Jesus was still competent to say how they would have reacted.

There is no reason to believe that God knows things that have no possibility in previous or current existence. I.e. things that have yet to happen [2009 Super Bowl].

In the passage that I cited God apparently knew something that had not happened. In addition, there's the matter of Jesus foretelling Peter's denial of Him. Did he know this, or was he guessing?

What about His attributes? Could He act against His attributes? For example, I do not have the ability to fly because I do not have the attributes that would allow me to fly. So I cannot fly. However, if I was all powerful, would I be able to fly without the attributes needed to fly?

If you didn't have the attributes needed to fly how would you be all powerful?

 

[Lighthouse]

The passage is in Paul's sermon on Mars hill, which, if you will recall, was directed to a pagan gentile audience.

That's not backing it up. Show me how you came to that conclusion. Verses?

But those works were never performed in them, and yet Jesus was still competent to say how they would have reacted.

So? That's irrelevant to the issue.

In the passage that I cited God apparently knew something that had not happened. In addition, there's the matter of Jesus foretelling Peter's denial of Him. Did he know this, or was he guessing?

God also stated that He never thought people would sacrifice children. And He also stated that He did not previously know the reaches of Abraham's faith, until Abraham obeyed Him.

As for Peter's denial, He knew Peter's heart. He knew Peter was weak. He knew that if someone confronted Peter, Peter would deny.

If you didn't have the attributes needed to fly how would you be all powerful?

:bang:

Can God travel through time?

 

[Eli_Cash]

That's not backing it up. Show me how you came to that conclusion. Verses?

Acts 17:22,23
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

So? That's irrelevant to the issue.

He had knowledge of an event which never occurred. Considering that you (apparently) wanted verses that showed that God could know something that didn't exist, this is very relevant.

God also stated that He never thought people would sacrifice children. And He also stated that He did not previously know the reaches of Abraham's faith, until Abraham obeyed Him.

Verses?

As for Peter's denial, He knew Peter's heart. He knew Peter was weak. He knew that if someone confronted Peter, Peter would deny.

He knew? So does that mean that Peter's denial was a foregone conclusion?

:bang:

Can God travel through time?

In what sense? I believe that God transcends time, so the very concept seems unintelligible to me. You'll have to be more specific.

 

[Lighthouse]

Acts 17:22,23
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Yet Paul was speaking of "us," in that particular instance, to the men of Athens.

He had knowledge of an event which never occurred. Considering that you (apparently) wanted verses that showed that God could know something that didn't exist, this is very relevant.

Wrong. This was knowledge of something that could have happened, and God, knowing what He knew, of Tyre and Sidon knew what would have happened. The issue is not the past, but the future.

Verses?

And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
-Genesis 22:12

And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
-Jeremiah 32:35

He knew? So does that mean that Peter's denial was a foregone conclusion?

Actually, no. But Peter was weak, so there is no reason to assume he would have mustered the strength to proclaim the truth, instead of deny Christ like that.

In what sense? I believe that God transcends time, so the very concept seems unintelligible to me. You'll have to be more specific.

Time is an attribute of God. It exists because He exists. It is dictated by His very experience. So He cannot move back and forth between what was, now and what's to come, because only the now exists. The future has not happened, in any sense, and the past is over and gone. There's nothign to go to in either direction. So God cannot do anything that contradicts an attribute of His existence. In other words, He cannot stop being God.

 

[Eli_Cash]

Yet Paul was speaking of "us," in that particular instance, to the men of Athens.

Acts 17:24-28 KJV
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Paul's whole argument here depends on the idea that those who should seek the Lord are the same which live move and have their breath in him, and are "all nations of men" and of whom it was said by their own poets that they are the offspring of God.

Wrong. This was knowledge of something that could have happened, and God, knowing what He knew, of Tyre and Sidon knew what would have happened. The issue is not the past, but the future.

It was neither past nor future, but something that never happened at all, which is why I quoted it, since you brought up the idea that God couldn't know things that didn't exist. In this passage it seems that he knows how they would have reacted, even though it never happened. How is this possible? Under your view he would only have been speculating.

And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
-Genesis 22:12

So you believe that God didn't know that Abraham feared him before that?

And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
-Jeremiah 32:35

I don't think this is speaking of his knowledge but his will/desire/intention, contrasted with his explicit command. In other words, "I didn't tell you to do this, nor did I want you to."

The word for mind here is "leb".

3820
leb
labe

a form of 'lebab' (3824); the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything:--+ care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag(-eous), friend(-ly), ((broken-), (hard-), (merry-), (stiff-), (stout-), double) heart((-ed)), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind(-ed), X regard((-ed)), X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

Actually, no. But Peter was weak, so there is no reason to assume he would have mustered the strength to proclaim the truth, instead of deny Christ like that.

So Jesus was just making an educated guess? Or did he know what Peter would do? Please understand that I'm not concerned with how he knew, but with whether he knew, or was just guessing.

Time is an attribute of God. It exists because He exists. It is dictated by His very experience. So He cannot move back and forth between what was, now and what's to come, because only the now exists. The future has not happened, in any sense, and the past is over and gone. There's nothign to go to in either direction. So God cannot do anything that contradicts an attribute of His existence. In other words, He cannot stop being God.

So are you a presentist or an open futurist? I thought that most Open Theist held to an open future theory, in which the past is real but the future is not. If you hold to a presentist theory of time, then it would seem that statements about the past are just as speculative as statements about the present. On the other had, if you hold to an open future theory then it seems that you would conclude that God could travel into the past, since it exists. Unless you believe that there are problems with the notion of time travel other than the ontology of past and present, in which case your time travel objection to my view may not be sound.