I CHOOSE to be here of my own Free Will

[Puppet]

Anti-Bus said,

I do not look for a rebuilt Temple and red heifers being slaughtered
and Gog of Magog coming round the mountain when He comes
==========================================

I do and it will come in 2018.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by

Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the

prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

They have to be pure red heifers. If one single gray hair is found, they're not pure and it won't work. Let us know if you find a flawless one.

 

[Anto9us]

"the yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the Court of the Crimson King"

-----

"I Drank"

and

"Puppet"

I regret that I am not more adept at this boards messages and stuff

maybe after muh 7 days and 25 posts things will come together

"Ahhhhh

Ahhh - Ahhh - Ahhh

Ahhh - Ahhh - Ahhh"

 

[Puppet]

they want you to spray hot coals, dance puppet dance !

i tend to spend as much time debating with people who do not believe in Free Will as i do arguing with people that don't believe that they exist...

it can be fun sometimes

"calvinists" is what happens when the human brain tries to logic stuff from bad interpretations of scripture, it can't handle then blue screens, unfortunately when people crash they can keep going about their merry little lives

weird

Too many signs he or she is a possible reprobate.

 

[Anto9us]

EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT flawless, PUPPET --

THE STEAKS CAN TASTE PRETTY GOOD !!!

(I am more into steaks than ice cream)


If I was predestined to become Arminian -- what would you have me do about that?

 

[Puppet]

"the yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the Court of the Crimson King"

-----

"I Drank"

and

"Puppet"

I regret that I am not more adept at this boards messages and stuff

maybe after muh 7 days and 25 posts things will come together

"Ahhhhh

Ahhh - Ahhh - Ahhh

Ahhh - Ahhh - Ahhh"

We have a new grosnick marowbe or do we have letsargue that took english classes.

 

[Puppet]

EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT flawless, PUPPET --

THE STEAKS CAN TASTE PRETTY GOOD !!!

(I am more into steaks than ice cream)


If I was predestined to become Arminian -- what would you have me do about that?

All of mankind are born to be arminians and theres nothing any men to anything about that cause they will have no clue what it is that needs to be done.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I am Anto9us - Singer of Songs.

I am Arminian.

By God's will you chose...now all that is necessary is His grace and enablement.......plus a fair wind from Knight

 

[chrysostom]

Guess Again, Grasshopper !!



http://www.reasons.org/blogs/reflec...augustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2

augustine didn't write that
that is someone's interpretation of what augustine wrote
and
that makes your post
your interpretation of someone's interpretation of
what augustine wrote

here is what augustine wrote

here he uses the word predestination five times
predestinate 32 times
and
the word double
exactly zero times

so I ask again
why would an arminian use the phrase double predestination?
do you have to corrupt the meaning of words, as the calvinists have done, to make your case?

 

[Anto9us]

okay - fine - chrys --

I just MADE UP ALL THIS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD

http://www.bing.com/search?q="Augus...s=n&sk=&cvid=c850b89c76e540b5913767ef5cbe99e1

Augustine's DOUBLE PRESEDTINATION IS A MATTER of Church History

else googling on it wouldn't bring up pages of hits

I'm outta here

whata crock

 

[chrysostom]

okay - fine - chrys --

I just MADE UP ALL THIS OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD

http://www.bing.com/search?q="Augus...s=n&sk=&cvid=c850b89c76e540b5913767ef5cbe99e1

Augustine's DOUBLE PRESEDTINATION IS A MATTER of Church History

else googling on it wouldn't bring up pages of hits

I'm outta here

whata crock

oh
look what you found on the internet
well
I looked on the internet
and
I found what augustine wrote

the phrase
double predestination
was not even used or needed until long after augustine was buried

 

[chrysostom]

However, while adopting some of St. Augustine's ideas and arguments, Calvin's denial of free will, and hence his adoption of double predestination, is not consistent with Augustine's.

look what I found on the internet

 

[Anto9us]

from http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm

(3) City of God 21, 12: "Hence there is a condemned mass of the whole human race . . . so that no one would be freed from this just and due

punishment except by mercy and undue grace; and so

the human race is divided [into two parts]

so that in some it may be shown what merciful

grace can do, in others, what just vengeance can do. . . . In it [punishment] there are many more than in [mercy] so that in this way there may

be shown what is due to all."

(4) Epistle 190. 3. 12: He said that reprobates are so much more numerous than the saved that "by an incomparable number they are more numerous

than those whom He deigned to predestine as sons of the promise to the glory of His kingdom; so that by the very number of those rejected, it

might he shown that the number, howsoever large, of the justly damned is of no importance with a just God. . . ."

Which implies that God does not will all to be saved: hence Augustine's explicit denial, several times, of the words of 1 Tim 2:4. Hence too, as we said above, God does

not really love anyone: He merely uses a few to show mercy.

----------

The human race is divided into two parts (meaning some predestined to heaven, and some predestined to hay-yull. )

This is "double predestination" - regardless of whether the exact TERM is used or not.

In contrast, Arminius says there is a CLASS of humans predestined to salvation -- the class of BELIEVERS - and that a person's free will IN

RESPONDING TO GOD's GRACE is what makes him a believer or not.

Calvin agreed with Augustine that "the human race is divided [into two parts]" - based on God's 'arbitrary decree' - not the will of the individual humans.

 

[chrysostom]

This is "double predestination" - regardless of whether the exact TERM is used or not.

no it isn't

you are still reaching

just admit that it was wrong for you to attribute the phrase
double predestination
to augustine
and
I will cut you some slack

you don't want to die on this hill

 

[Totton Linnet]

Welcome to TOL Anto9us! :wave:

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" Deuteronomy 30:19

I didn't catch 'em but I sure shot 'em as they bathed in the sun by the Trinity River!

Zdra-stvu-eetee! Kak pazhivayete? (Don't get excited. That's all I know! :chuckle: )

Let's have a look at this ragamuffin.

If they choose to obey will it not be God's will they will be doing? and if they disobey they will be dead...what freewill do dead people have?

But what about the Egyptians? or the Anakin, Moab, do they get the choice? how about the ancient Brits or Chinese?

So you see the only One with free sovereign will is the One who gave the choices and who controls the consequences.

 

[chrysostom]

Let's have a look at this ragamuffin.

If they choose to obey will it not be God's will they will be doing? and if they disobey they will be dead...what freewill do dead people have?

But what about the Egyptians? or the Anakin, Moab, do they get the choice? how about the ancient Brits or Chinese?

So you see the only One with free sovereign will is the One who gave the choices and who controls the consequences.

well how come you are free to create confusion?

 

[Totton Linnet]

from http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.htm

(3) City of God 21, 12: "Hence there is a condemned mass of the whole human race . . . so that no one would be freed from this just and due

punishment except by mercy and undue grace; and so

the human race is divided [into two parts]

so that in some it may be shown what merciful

grace can do, in others, what just vengeance can do. . . . In it [punishment] there are many more than in [mercy] so that in this way there may

be shown what is due to all."

(4) Epistle 190. 3. 12: He said that reprobates are so much more numerous than the saved that "by an incomparable number they are more numerous

than those whom He deigned to predestine as sons of the promise to the glory of His kingdom; so that by the very number of those rejected, it

might he shown that the number, howsoever large, of the justly damned is of no importance with a just God. . . ."

Which implies that God does not will all to be saved: hence Augustine's explicit denial, several times, of the words of 1 Tim 2:4. Hence too, as we said above, God does

not really love anyone: He merely uses a few to show mercy.

----------

The human race is divided into two parts (meaning some predestined to heaven, and some predestined to hay-yull. )

This is "double predestination" - regardless of whether the exact TERM is used or not.

In contrast, Arminius says there is a CLASS of humans predestined to salvation -- the class of BELIEVERS - and that a person's free will IN

RESPONDING TO GOD's GRACE is what makes him a believer or not.

Calvin agreed with Augustine that "the human race is divided [into two parts]" - based on God's 'arbitrary decree' - not the will of the individual humans.

Augustine [although he was African] was following Grecco/Latin dualistic logic and the western church has done so consistently but God is 3.

And predestination and election is only spoken of in relation to the blessing, not the reception of only but of becoming the means and instrument of blessing to the world. In other words the Church. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son.....it does not preclude others from being saved, indeed Augustine should have known that if we are a city built upon a hill, it is for the benefit of the world that we are built upon a hill.

But yes Augustine made the same mistake that Calvin made.

 

[Totton Linnet]

well how come you are free to create confusion?

's no such thing as freewill.

 

[chrysostom]

And predestination and election is only spoken of in relation to the blessing,

more confusion

the predestination and election spoken by augustine refers to certain people God used to control history
constantine is a good example of that
even constantine's salvation was not preordained
even though many think, and have no right to, he is not saved

 

[Totton Linnet]

more confusion

the predestination and election spoken by augustine refers to certain people God used to control history
constantine is a good example of that
even constantine's salvation was not preordained
even though many think, and have no right to, he is not saved

Folks doubt his salvation because nobody in the bible got saved by seeing a fiery cross in the sky and a voice which said "in this sign conquer your enemy"

Still it worked out well for Con stantine, with the help of Catholics he was able to subdue the Byzantines. It's funny how that I said "bless the world" and you said "control the world...." how very Catholic.

 

[Puppet]

In the Pauline conception, predestination, or fore-ordination, covers and includes both the holiness that is to be rewarded with life, and the sin that is to be punished with death. The holiness of the elect is predestinated, and the sin of the non-elect likewise.
God ‘foreordains' and makes certain two things that unquestionably ‘come to pass,' namely, the everlasting holiness and life of some men, and the everlasting sin and death of some men; ‘yet so as thereby God is not the author of sin; nor is violence done to the will of the creature; nor is the liberty of second causes taken away, but rather established'.
found: http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/wgt_shedd/wgt_shedd.DoublePredestination.html