I Am Pro-Abortion

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Well out of your depth, huh?

I can draw a circle using the rules that define it, no opinion is required, a circle can be demonstrated to be a circle, there is no need for any subjectivity.
Exactly. So why did you ask for evidence of what I believe when it is based on definitional reasoning?

If you think that a "person" begins at conception then that's fine but you have no way of demonstrating it thus it remains a subjective opinion only.
Nope.

There is plenty of evidence that backs up what I say.

Other people may believe quite sincerely that a new person can only exist at a later time. You have no justification to impose your beliefs on others, but by all means do implement them on yourself should you ever be in that situation. You have no right to impose your beliefs on those who think otherwise.

You'd love to be able to impose the apathy dictate. That is because if nobody cared, you could murder whoever you like without facing reprimand.

Nope. Morons like you have to be opposed, because you hate life, oppose reason and invite disaster.

I am not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice.
The choice you demand to have is to be allowed to tear babies limb-from-limb for a long list of reasons. You are a pro-abort; a murderer.

I'm not interested in killing anyone, I aim for what is a balanced responsible choice for the best outcome, based on the specific evidence of each case, not a third party's un-evidenced uncaring dogma. :plain:
The best outcome is that the baby is protected. Your desire that he not be protected in all cases puts you on the wrong side of the law.
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
I simply don't grant your previous arguments. "First order" fetus rationality is neither ostensibly apparent nor a physiological possibility especially in early gestation.

I wouldn't use the term "first order." But you can refuse to grant my arguments all day long. That's not the same thing as saying: "I deny this particular premise."

Demonstrate the practical presence of rationality regarding the zygote.... beyond abstract/ideological assertion.

See below.

Notice where your equating/presuming "being human" as the equivalent to "human being". You're begging the very question here.

Qualify your assertions.

If x is a human, and "human" is being used either as a substantive adjective or a noun, then x is a human being. I see no way around this. So, let us return to our definition of person. A person, let us recall, is a subsistent individual of a rational nature. What do I mean by those words?

For a person to be a subsistent individual means that it is the sort of thing which exists in its own right, and not as the qualification of another thing. "Yellow," "6 feet tall" and "fast" are not subsistent individuals. They only "exist" as qualifications of other things. There is no such thing as "the yellow." There are only yellow things (for example, yellow flowers). Likewise, a finger is not a subsistent individual, since it is not a complete "thing" in its own right. A finger only exists as a finger insofar as it is part of a larger whole. It's a part of a complete animal.

Thus, persons are substances, not accidents.

For a person to be a subsistent individual of a rational nature means that it is the sort of substance into whose essential definition "rational" enters. Ie, if I tell you about the sort of individual who is a person, somewhere in the description of the kind of thing that it is, I will say "and it is rational (in first act; "rational," note, in this case, tells us about the kind of thing that something is, not about what it does)."

Can something be human without being a human being? Can something be human or a human being without being a person?

By "a human being" I simply mean any subsistent individual which is human in kind. I.e., it is to pick out an individual thing and say "in addition to being a subsistent individual (and not an accident), it is human."

Can something be human without being a subsistent individual? The answer seems to be "no." We only call those things "human" which are complete, subsisting individuals in their own right. "Human" is a substantial, not an accidental term. We refer to fingers, toes and other body parts as "human" only secondarily, namely, as belonging to a complete animal.

A fetus is not called "human" in this secondary sense. A fetus is a subsistent individual, and not only that, but a subsistent individual of the human kind, and, therefore, is a human being. Since, however, the human kind is "rational animal," and a person is any subsistent individual of a rational nature, it follows that the fetus (and every human being) is a person.

The only real way to deny my arguments is to tell me that parents do not produce offspring specifically (ie, the same in species ("human being," in this case)) like themselves. You have to deny the principle that horses beget horses, that sheep beget sheep, that oxen beget oxen, and that human beings beget human beings.

But is that too ridiculous? Then we must grant that the fetus, from the moment of conception, is a person.

But you'll object that the fetus displays no signs of rationality, and that the corporeal structure of the organism is unable to sustain rational activity. I'll answer that it need only be granted that the fetus is rational in first actuality, not in second actuality, and we are assured of the rationality of the fetus in first actuality because of the general principle that parents produce offspring which are the same in species as themselves...and the parents are human beings, ie., rational animals. In answer to your objection that the corporeal structure of the organism is unable to sustain rationality, I'll answer that reason/intellect is not the actuality of a body and is, in and of itself, wholly incorporeal.
 

alwight

New member
Well out of your depth, huh?
No, but haven't you forgotten to whine to the mods again by now?

Exactly. So why did you ask for evidence of what I believe when it is based on definitional reasoning?
Because what you believe is not evidence that I can evaluate.


If you think that a "person" begins at conception then that's fine but you have no way of demonstrating it thus it remains a subjective opinion only.
Nope.

There is plenty of evidence that backs up what I say.
Would you like to share it with me Stripe?

You'd love to be able to impose the apathy dictate. That is because if nobody cared, you could murder whoever you like without facing reprimand.
Why on Earth would I want to murder anyone Stripe?

Nope. Morons like you have to be opposed, because you hate life, oppose reason and invite disaster.
Actually I think that extant people should be allowed to continue to choose what matters in their life free from the interference of other people's dogma being imposed on them perhaps by those who think that this life is only a waiting room for the next.

The choice you demand to have is to be allowed to tear babies limb-from-limb for a long list of reasons. You are a pro-abort; a murderer.
You'll be claiming that I eat babies next Stripe.:rolleyes:
If an abortion is the chosen choice then I may or may not agree but I take no pleasure from it.

The best outcome is that the baby is protected. Your desire that he not be protected in all cases puts you on the wrong side of the law.
He? Are all babies male in your mind? I noticed from all your previous whining and whinging to the mods that if someone else had referred to an "it" then that really got your goat for some reason. :think:

Anyway if I choose to conclude that it, err ...sorry he/she, (please don't report me.), actually is a functioning healthy baby based on the specific individual facts then I will probably be on your side here.:)
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Because what you believe is not evidence.
Then quit saying I need to present evidence when I present what I believe. :up:

Would you like to share it with me Stripe?
Share what with you?

Actually I think that extant people should be allowed to continue to choose what matters in their life free from the interference of other people's dogma being imposed on them perhaps by those who think that this life is only a waiting room for the next.
And yet you exclude extant people because of their size, location and lack of detectable heartbeat.

If an abortion is the chosen choice then I may ... agree.
We know. You will condone murder. Which makes you as bad as a murderer.

I will probably be on your side here.
I am not looking for people to join my side. :idunno:

I would prefer you to be on the side of right. Right is that at conception, there is the tiniest of human beings, who is deserving of the greatest protections.
 

alwight

New member
Then quit saying I need to present evidence when I present what I believe. :up:
Then believe whatever you want Stripe I really don't care, just keep it for yourself and allow others to do likewise with what they believe.
 

Angeltress

New member
Once again, the problem is that pro-choice actually believe that women WANT to have abortions. They think that this is a "choice" when most of the time it is not.
Most of the young women who have abortions do so out of desperation. They feel alone and afraid. The have no emotional or financial support, their friends and family have made themselves clear, they will not support her if she decides to carry the baby, or the father has said that he will have nothing to do with her or the baby, or the father's family has told him that they will not support him if he decides to try to marry his girlfriend and raise his child...or any combination of the above. She feels as if she has nowhere to turn.
The lucky ones wind up in an abortion alternative center, looking for answers...and they find people there who understand her dilemma, and who will help her find the resources she needs. Often, a volunteer, like myself, will take a girl into their own home, where they will care for her out of their own pocket.
The unlucky ones live through a nightmare...
Some of them wind up at an abortion alternative center, wanting a sympathetic ear...and find Christian counseling with caring people who will help them to work through their guilt and find the forgiveness and the love of God.
I pity those who do not...

I've even heard of cases where women have committed suicide.

NO, abortion is NOT a "choice" in most cases.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Then believe whatever you want Stripe I really don't care, just keep it for yourself and allow others to do likewise with what they believe.

Nope. Your position is one that advocates for the murder of the tiniest human beings; those who have the least representation of all.

Silence and apathy are your friends, not mine.
 

alwight

New member
Once again, the problem is that pro-choice actually believe that women WANT to have abortions. They think that this is a "choice" when most of the time it is not.
I don't believe that anyone "wants" to have an abortion.

I think that people should be allowed to plan their own family and if something went wrong with contraception then I see nothing particularly morally wrong if a prompt termination restores the original plan.

Then again I don't accept that a raped woman should be compelled to produce a rapists offspring.
I don't accept that abnormalities should not be an option to avoid.

Where exactly should the line of "choice" be drawn or must there never be a choice at all?
 

alwight

New member
Nope. Your position is one that advocates for the murder of the tiniest human beings; those who have the least representation of all.

Silence and apathy are your friends, not mine.
I don't believe in souls Stripe, so shoot me.
 

quip

BANNED
Banned
I wouldn't use the term "first order." But you can refuse to grant my arguments all day long. That's not the same thing as saying: "I deny this particular premise."

Just using your own expression...I could have called your premise absurd and impractical...it's all the same rejection.


If x is a human, and "human" is being used either as a substantive adjective or a noun, then x is a human being. I see no way around this. So, let us return to our definition of person. A person, let us recall, is a subsistent individual of a rational nature. What do I mean by those words?

For a person to be a subsistent individual means that it is the sort of thing which exists in its own right, and not as the qualification of another thing. "Yellow," "6 feet tall" and "fast" are not subsistent individuals. They only "exist" as qualifications of other things. There is no such thing as "the yellow." There are only yellow things (for example, yellow flowers). Likewise, a finger is not a subsistent individual, since it is not a complete "thing" in its own right. A finger only exists as a finger insofar as it is part of a larger whole. It's a part of a complete animal.

Thus, persons are substances, not accidents.

Where's your justification for concluding this with the individual?

A person is a member of a larger living whole, namely a culture, society or perhaps a congregation. Human societies, as well....exist as a yet smaller aspect of a larger, natural aggregation...and so on.

What constitutes a society..etc.?

The moniker of "person" is not simply an abstraction, it's rather how one human individual exists (interaction) in relation to other individuals. Personage is an active, constant and contiguious relationship between sentient human individuals...it's as much what we do that defines us a persons. It's why our actions are morally germane to others; the acts of the individual are of importance to society writ large.

Incipient life, though replete with human DNA, simply cannot act in this capacity especially at the early stages of development. Your simplistic, ideological qualification for personhood simply does not sufficiently embrace the complexities necessary for active personhood. Rather, its a static and myopic ideological stance.


Can something be human without being a human being? Can something be human or a human being without being a person?
Yes, namely my disembodied toe-nail, hair, dead skin, blood...each has copious amounts of human DNA, no less your sole qualification for personhood.

Limited, Absurd?



In answer to your objection that the corporeal structure of the organism is unable to sustain rationality, I'll answer that reason/intellect is not the actuality of a body and is, in and of itself, wholly incorporeal.

Then your argument remains subject to that identical in-substantiality.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I don't believe in souls Stripe, so shoot me.

That's nice.

When you find someone who insists that you do, you will have a slam-dunk case. :loser:

Meanwhile, your position is one that advocates for the murder of the tiniest human beings; those who have the least representation of all.

Silence and apathy are your friends, not mine.
 

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
Both the quote and article are supported with heavy assumptions, many of which I believe to be fatally flawed.

taking the quote, the flawed assumptions

  • a embryo is not child up until birth
  • only developed not potential beings have rights
  • a woman is alone in pregnancy
  • that a pregnancy is solely her body, its is two bodies


"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn). Abortion is a moral right — which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
-Ayn Rand

I Am Pro Abortion: 10 Reasons Why We Must Support the Procedure and the Choice
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
"An embryo has no rights. Rights do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born. The living take precedence over the not-yet-living (or the unborn). Abortion is a moral right — which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
-Ayn Rand



I Am Pro Abortion: 10 Reasons Why We Must Support the Procedure and the Choice
Just plain evil!
 

alwight

New member
That's nice.

When you find someone who insists that you do, you will have a slam-dunk case. :loser:

Meanwhile, your position is one that advocates for the murder of the tiniest human beings; those who have the least representation of all.

Silence and apathy are your friends, not mine.
Two thirds of your supposed "tiniest human beings" get flushed away naturally without any assistance, don't you care about them Stripe?
It doesn't bother me because that's simply how it is, how it all works, no persons, souls or tiny humans are in fact lost, why worry?:)
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Mortal danger to the mother.
There is never a need to intentionally kill a baby to save the life of a mother.
Two thirds of your supposed "tiniest human beings" get flushed away naturally without any assistance.
Therefore, what? People die, therefore they aren't people and we should be allowed to kill them?

It doesn't bother me because that's simply how it is, how it all works, no persons, souls or tiny humans are in fact lost, why worry?

Because you don't stop at apathy toward one of the most painful experiences parents can go through. You want to retain the ability to murder babies up until shortly before they are born.
 

Quetzal

New member
There is never a need to intentionally kill a baby to save the life of a mother.
So, you intentionally kill the mother instead? Both are awful outcomes, but this is one of the cases in which I believe aborting the pregnancy needs to be an option.
 

alwight

New member
There is never a need to intentionally kill a baby to save the life of a mother.
Therefore, what? People die, therefore they aren't people and we should be allowed to kill them?



Because you don't stop at apathy toward one of the most painful experiences parents can go through. You want to retain the ability to murder babies up until shortly before they are born.
In your world Stripe twice as many supposed "humans beings" suffer death than go on to experience life, yet that apparently awful ongoing human tragedy seems to pass you by without a care. Clearly you are an evil, callous and heartless person.:AMR:
All those poor "tiny human beings" should surely cause you more concern, pause for thought?
I honestly can't believe that you have any time to worry about the tiny few that are aborted for whatever reason.
 
Top