How to understand Paul

jamie

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The context is worship, or church where they are told to dress modestly and shut up, and be in "subjection".

Women are to be in subjection to whom?

I take it you are not married, if you were, why would you want your wife to be subject to other men? Why wouldn't you want her to be faithful to you as her man?

Let's look at 1 Timothy 2:12:

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12 NKJV)​

A woman should not dominate which man? The answer is given in the next verse. A woman should not dominate her man.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (1 Timothy 2:13 NKJV)​

Why would Paul refer to Adam and Eve? Here's why:

To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception, in pain you shall bring forth children; your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you." (Genesis 3:16 NKJV)​

God does not intend for a woman to dominate her husband and the truth of the matter is what woman would want to mother her husband anyway? It's unseemly.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Women are to be in subjection to whom?

I take it you are not married, if you were, why would you want your wife to be subject to other men? Why wouldn't you want her to be faithful to you as her man?

Let's look at 1 Timothy 2:12:

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12 NKJV)​

A woman should not dominate which man? The answer is given in the next verse. A woman should not dominate her man.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (1 Timothy 2:13 NKJV)​

Why would Paul refer to Adam and Eve? Here's why:

To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception, in pain you shall bring forth children; your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you." (Genesis 3:16 NKJV)​

God does not intend for a woman to dominate her husband and the truth of the matter is what woman would want to mother her husband anyway? It's unseemly.

Explain to me why, in marriage, a woman is commanded to be silent?
I can understand Paul saying, in church, be silent, but not in marriage.
The whole context is church.
Paul falls back on A&E because he believes all women are somehow inferior. That's his craziness.
 

jamie

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Explain to me why, in marriage, a woman is commanded to be silent?

A wife can express her point of view but if it is not accepted she should not become argumentative.

Paul taught, "Let a woman learn in silence (quietly) with all submission."

It's not feminine to fight. If a wife can't live with her husband in peace then she is not obligated to stay with him.
 

iouae

Well-known member
A wife can express her point of view but if it is not accepted she should not become argumentative.

Paul taught, "Let a woman learn in silence (quietly) with all submission."

It's not feminine to fight. If a wife can't live with her husband in peace then she is not obligated to stay with him.

Jamie, Christ gave one reason for divorce only, and that is fornication.

How can you then say "If a wife can't live with her husband in peace then she is not obligated to stay with him". This is a reason for EVERY marriage to split up.

I think we as Christians have imbibed Paul's misogynist views if we think our wives should learn in silence with all submission, as if they were little children.
 

jamie

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Jamie, Christ gave one reason for divorce only, and that is fornication.

How can you then say "If a wife can't live with her husband in peace then she is not obligated to stay with him". This is a reason for EVERY marriage to split up.

Paul says the same thing.

Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord, a wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say if any brother has a wife who does not believe and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart, a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? (1 Corinthians 7:10-16 NKJV )​
 

iouae

Well-known member
How about 1st Peter 3:1,7---"without a word," "the weaker vessel"

That's another Paul collectable, that wives are the "weaker vessel" - whatever Paul takes that to mean. One gets the feeling he thinks of women as children who must submit, in silence to the wisdom of men. Ha. What a laugh. Paul obviously was not married. Bachelors have all the answers to marital problems, and child rearing issues. I am not trying to belittle Paul since he was devoted to Christ. He just had a bit of crazy like we all do.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Paul says the same thing.

Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord, a wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say if any brother has a wife who does not believe and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart, a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? (1 Corinthians 7:10-16 NKJV )​

And you take all of the above to be saying "If a wife can't live with her husband in peace then she is not obligated to stay with him"?
 

jamie

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And you take all of the above to be saying "If a wife can't live with her husband in peace then she is not obligated to stay with him"?

Correct. God does not require a wife to live with a man who abuses her in any way and who does not love and respect her.
 

jamie

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That's another Paul collectable, that wives are the "weaker vessel" -

Actually, Peter said that.

Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife as to the weaker vessel and as being heirs together of the grace of life that your prayers may not be hindered. (1 Peter 3:7 NKJV)​

Do you believe all of Jesus' apostles were crazy?
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your OP, and I'm sorry the thread was closed. Since you're only allowed one thread on Paul, I thought I'd bring your post over here:

The other day my brother-in-law was visiting. He had been to a Mighty Man conference where men are taught to take charge of their households for Christ. 180 000 men [only] drive long distances to camp out in the sticks, to hear the main speaker exhort them every day to be men. Then, when he is finished, they break into small groups where they pray for each other and…(my mind was wandering at this stage).

He then went on to describe the long-drop toilets sitting under the baking sun. These consist of a honeycomb of dank holes covered with plastic lids, and surrounded by see-through hessian for privacy. He said these conditions forced him to drive miles to the nearest town every time he needed to do a 2.

I was shocked. I was horrified. I was indignant. I would have taken a swallow dive into those toilets with my mouth wide open rather than to have to endure sitting in small groups with men, to mentor them, to cry at their stories, to discuss their and my family problems, to hug them, to console them and to do all these "sissy" things. I thought this was a Mighty Man conference he went to, not a cryathon.

Because I like to stir, I asked my wife, who was listening, if she would want me going to the next Mighty Man conference. My son rolled his eyes like Dad was being a plonker again, and my wife gave me that withering look of "Yes Mr Big Mouth in company, but wait till we are alone". I duly shut up, knowing I was pushing my luck.

What are the Christian roles of man and woman, husband and wife?
Let's read Paul, ignoring the fact that a man is about to tell all women, how to be real women. I am fascinated Paul. Please tell me about your ideal Christian woman.

"The natural use of the woman," is sex. That is what women are useful for. (Rom 1:27)

"It is good for a man not to touch a woman." (1 Cor 7:1). The best state for men is to squash their interest in women, eschew sex, and become good Catholic priests.

"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Cor 7:2). For you compromising, Christian weaklings, get married then.

"For I would that all men were even as I myself." (1 Cor 7:7) The gold standard is to stay single.

"But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned;" Thanks Paul, I feel so much better now.

"the head of the woman is the man" (1 Cor 11:3) Great, I get to be the brains of the outfit. Does that put me above all women, or just my wife?

"but the woman is the glory of the man." (1 Cor 11:7) Being a trophy wife is biblical.

"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (1 Cor 11:9) That should make you women feel so special, that you were made for us.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." (1 Tim 2:11) Women were made to be seen, not heard.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (1 Tim 2:12). Uppity women are anathema.

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:14) So being spineless is better than being duped.

1 Tim 5
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
The above is a list of names Paul calls young Christian widows - "wanton..having damnation…cast off the first faith…idle…tattlers, busybodies".
The cure for these young ladies having all this time to get together and chat, is, they should rather revert to the "natural use of a woman" which is to remarry, have sex, have babies i.e. do something useful.

"I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house," (1 Tim 5:14) And the only good place for a woman, is at home, preferably barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

You don't believe me?
"keepers at home" (Titus 2:5) That's your place woman.

How should women dress?
"… that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" (1 Tim 2:9) So women who go to hairdressers are doing so against Paul's considered advice, the little Jezebels.
As is wearing jewellery, or even a Donatella Versace evening gown.

And to go with their drab appearance they should adopt a "shamefaced" demeanour. Don't just stand there woman, assume an ashamed pose. You must have done something to be ashamed of, even if it is just looking attractive.

Just being your gorgeous selves naturally leads us weak-willed men astray. And God forbid you wear a bikini on the beach.

Thank you for your replies in anticipation. I know you will confine these to addressing the scriptures I quoted, rather than shooting the messenger.
 

daqq

Well-known member
I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your OP, and I'm sorry the thread was closed. Since you're only allowed one thread on Paul, I thought I'd bring your post over here:
Originally Posted by iouae
The other day my brother-in-law was visiting. He had been to a Mighty Man conference where men are taught to take charge of their households for Christ. 180 000 men [only] drive long distances to camp out in the sticks, to hear the main speaker exhort them every day to be men. Then, when he is finished, they break into small groups where they pray for each other and…(my mind was wandering at this stage).

He then went on to describe the long-drop toilets sitting under the baking sun. These consist of a honeycomb of dank holes covered with plastic lids, and surrounded by see-through hessian for privacy. He said these conditions forced him to drive miles to the nearest town every time he needed to do a 2.

I was shocked. I was horrified. I was indignant. I would have taken a swallow dive into those toilets with my mouth wide open rather than to have to endure sitting in small groups with men, to mentor them, to cry at their stories, to discuss their and my family problems, to hug them, to console them and to do all these "sissy" things. I thought this was a Mighty Man conference he went to, not a cryathon.

Because I like to stir, I asked my wife, who was listening, if she would want me going to the next Mighty Man conference. My son rolled his eyes like Dad was being a plonker again, and my wife gave me that withering look of "Yes Mr Big Mouth in company, but wait till we are alone". I duly shut up, knowing I was pushing my luck.

What are the Christian roles of man and woman, husband and wife?
Let's read Paul, ignoring the fact that a man is about to tell all women, how to be real women. I am fascinated Paul. Please tell me about your ideal Christian woman.

"The natural use of the woman," is sex. That is what women are useful for. (Rom 1:27)

"It is good for a man not to touch a woman." (1 Cor 7:1). The best state for men is to squash their interest in women, eschew sex, and become good Catholic priests.

"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Cor 7:2). For you compromising, Christian weaklings, get married then.

"For I would that all men were even as I myself." (1 Cor 7:7) The gold standard is to stay single.

"But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned;" Thanks Paul, I feel so much better now.

"the head of the woman is the man" (1 Cor 11:3) Great, I get to be the brains of the outfit. Does that put me above all women, or just my wife?

"but the woman is the glory of the man." (1 Cor 11:7) Being a trophy wife is biblical.

"Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (1 Cor 11:9) That should make you women feel so special, that you were made for us.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." (1 Tim 2:11) Women were made to be seen, not heard.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (1 Tim 2:12). Uppity women are anathema.

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Tim 2:14) So being spineless is better than being duped.

1 Tim 5
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
The above is a list of names Paul calls young Christian widows - "wanton..having damnation…cast off the first faith…idle…tattlers, busybodies".
The cure for these young ladies having all this time to get together and chat, is, they should rather revert to the "natural use of a woman" which is to remarry, have sex, have babies i.e. do something useful.

"I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house," (1 Tim 5:14) And the only good place for a woman, is at home, preferably barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

You don't believe me?
"keepers at home" (Titus 2:5) That's your place woman.

How should women dress?
"… that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" (1 Tim 2:9) So women who go to hairdressers are doing so against Paul's considered advice, the little Jezebels.
As is wearing jewellery, or even a Donatella Versace evening gown.

And to go with their drab appearance they should adopt a "shamefaced" demeanour. Don't just stand there woman, assume an ashamed pose. You must have done something to be ashamed of, even if it is just looking attractive.

Just being your gorgeous selves naturally leads us weak-willed men astray. And God forbid you wear a bikini on the beach.

Thank you for your replies in anticipation. I know you will confine these to addressing the scriptures I quoted, rather than shooting the messenger.

Thanks a lot annabenedetti.

Exactly what happens with the totally physical mindset of the flesh-minded carnal man. It is amazing how mainstream Christianity turns a blind eye and refuses to acknowledge such obvious error in understanding. The flesh is always feminine gender, (I mean typology, allegory, and analogy) regardless of the physical make up of the carnal body of the individual. All flesh is deceived: therefore do not allow your flesh, that is, your "helpmate", to speak out in the congregation or teach, (it is an allegory of the flesh and not a physical worldly commandment). Paul clearly warns his readers to walk according to the Spirit and this is yet another one of those things which comes down from the very beginning. Eve is the mother of all chay-raw-life, (her name is Chavah from chay, which means raw life, and is used for all kinds of life including animals and even plants). Your flesh can only be "saved" by physical procreation, (physical child bearing) because that is the only way that physical seed lines of the flesh may continue. However, the "man", ("inner man", as Paul says) is not his body and likewise, (as also Paul says) there is neither male nor female in Messiah. :)
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Exactly what happens with the totally physical mindset of the flesh-minded carnal man. It is amazing how mainstream Christianity turns a blind eye and refuses to acknowledge such obvious error in understanding. The flesh is always feminine gender, (I mean typology, allegory, and analogy) regardless of the physical make up of the carnal body of the individual. All flesh is deceived: therefore do not allow your flesh, that is, your "helpmate", to speak out in the congregation or teach, (it is an allegory of the flesh and not a physical worldly commandment). Paul clearly warns his readers to walk according to the Spirit and this is yet another one of those things which comes down from the very beginning. Eve is the mother of all chay-raw-life, (her name is Chavah from chay, which means raw life, and is used for all kinds of life including animals and even plants). Your flesh can only be "saved" by physical procreation, (physical child bearing) because that is the only way that physical seed lines of the flesh may continue. However, the "man", ("inner man", as Paul says) is not his body and likewise, (as also Paul says) there is neither male nor female in Messiah. :)

Jezebel verses Elijah, Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:18.
 

aCultureWarrior

BANNED
Banned
LIFETIME MEMBER
I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your OP, and I'm sorry the thread was closed. Since you're only allowed one thread on Paul, I thought I'd bring your post over here:

Thanks a lot annabenedetti.

I typed "Mighty Men Conference" into a search engine and came up with this:

http://www.mightymenconference.co.za/?page_id=8


THE MESSAGE SIMPLY

•Apart from being the man of the home, men also need to be Godly examples in the workplace. Whether it be the sport field, the factory, the farm, the college, the university, they need to lead from the front, by example.
•Their physical, spiritual and mental attitudes towards life must convey the fragrance of Jesus Christ in everything they do. In other words, their lifestyles must match up to what they say.
•Men need to understand that they have a responsibility, not only to the family, but to the community and then to their nation.
•They need to be responsible, when it comes to the management of finance, of moral standards, of Biblical principles.
•We are not interested in personal opinions, only God’s opinion.
•Everything they speak, must be qualified by Scripture.
•No-one is interested in quotations from men who have no standing in the sight of God.
•Each man will have his own flavor, but the message remains the same.
•Men need to be encouraged to be men, to be good fathers, good husbands, good leaders and good citizens for the benefit of the Kingdom of God.


Men being responsible Godly men. Pretty disgusting isn't it iouae and anna?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Let's try to understand Romans as an example of understanding Paul

I chose this book simply because "the law" is mentioned 50 times in this book. My hope was to understand Paul's teaching on "the law" since everyone seems to have different ideas as to what Paul teaches on "the law"

In accordance with #2, I skimmed Romans for its storyline.
Below are what I consider the key scriptures from each chapter, and my summary in CAPITALS.

Rom 1
17 The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
EVERYONE IS GUILTY AND WITHOUT EXCUSE

Rom 2
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law,
JEW AND GENTILE EQUALLY GUILTY

Rom 3
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
THE LAW GAVE THE JEW NO ADVANTAGE

Rom 4
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe,
THE ORIGINAL FAITH WAS FAITH/GRACE

Rom 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
THE LAW ONLY EXPOSED SIN ALREADY THERE

Rom 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
GRACE IS NOT CARTE BLANCHE TO SIN

Rom 7
1 the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members,
THE LAW CONDEMNS THE LIVING TO DEATH

Rom 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
JUST AS CHRIST LIVED SINLESS IN HIS FLESH HE LIVES SINLESS IN YOURS

Rom 9
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT JESUS

Rom 10
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
BELIEF IN JESUS COMES FIRST

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
GENTILES ARE GRAFTED ONTO THE FAITH STOCK

Rom 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
AS SUCH THOSE GRAFTED IN NEED TO LIVE RIGHTEOUS

Rom 13
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
LIVING RIGHTEOUS MEANS GIVING DUES TO WHOM IT IS DUE

Rom 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
BEAR WITH WEAK BELIEVERS

Rom 15
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles
PAUL EXPLAINS HIS MINISTRY TO THE GENTILES

Rom 16
GREETINGS TO VARIOUS BELIEVERS

Because this is getting long, I am going to post this first before saying what I learned from Romans.
 
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Danoh

New member
I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your OP, and I'm sorry the thread was closed. Since you're only allowed one thread on Paul, I thought I'd bring your post over here:

:rotfl:

I've always enjoyed a good ribbing - that post was absolutely hilarious!

Of course the issue was Adam's rib, lol
 

iouae

Well-known member
Let's try to understand Romans as an example of understanding Paul Part 2

My main surprise was that although "the law" is mentioned 50 times, Romans is not about "the law". I would summarise Romans to be saying the following...

Without Christ nobody can be righteous. Jew and Gentile equally need Jesus.

Here is how Paul develops this argument.

Rom 1 Everyone is guilty and without excuse. Rom 2 Jew and Gentile are equally guilty. Rom 3 The law gave the Jew no advantage. Rom 4 The original, God intended faith, was faith and righteousness imputed by grace. Rom 5 The law only exposed sin which was already present since creation. Rom 6 Grace does not give one leave to sin. Rom 7
The law condemns the flesh to death. Rom 8 Just as Christ lived sinless in His flesh, so now He lives sinless in your flesh. Rom 9 There is no alternative righteousness without Jesus. Rom 10 Righteousness from Jesus comes from believing in Him first. Rom 11 Gentiles are grafted onto the faith stock, started by Abraham. Rom 12 Being grafted onto the faith stock, one now has to live a righteous life. Rom 13 A righteous life includes paying to all their dues, including respect.
Rom 14 Bear with weak believers. Rom 15 Paul explains his calling to minister to Gentiles. Rom 16 Paul greets a whole lot of Gentile believers to prove his ministry to Gentiles.

I see a certain logic and cohesive theme to the whole book of Romans.
It took me two hours of study to get to this point.

Let's suppose I don't look at Romans as a whole, but dive straight in, here are some FALSE impressions I might come to.

1. There is no excuse for not believing in God (Rom 1:20)
2. People not knowing God will be condemned on Judgment Day by their conscience which condemns them (Rom 2:14-16)
3. A person is justified by faith. Works are irrelevant (Rom 3:28). Faith voids the law (but Rom 3:31 refutes this).
4. The moment a Christian believes in doing righteousness, he must have a works-based salvation and comes back under the law and its condemnation (Rom 4:4).
5. We don't actually have to live righteous lives because Christ imputes (gives us) His righteousness. (Rom 4:22)
6. Imputed righteousness exists only in God's eyes, not our lives. (Rom 4:22).
7. Christ died for the ungodly, so all, including the ungodly were saved at the cross, around 31 AD, no conditions. The whole world is saved (Rom 5:8).
8. Just as death came on all by Adam's sin, so eternal life came on all (without exception) through Christ's death (Rom 5:18).
9. Sin causes death. Wherever death happens, the cause must be sin (Rom 5:21 Rom 6:23).
10. We are not under the law but under grace, means we are not under any obligation to keep the law (Rom 6:14).
11. Serving God in "newness of spirit" bears no resemblance to keeping any laws (Rom 7:6).
12. It is OK that Christians serve God in their minds. the sins of their flesh are irrelevant (Rom 7:25 Rom 8:1-4).
13. Fearing God was bondage, now we are children and don't need to fear (Rom 8:15).
14. No matter what happens, good or bad, it all serves a good purpose (works together for good) when one is a Christian (Rom 8:28).
15. Some are predestined to be saved, others predestined to be lost (Rom 8:29-30).
16. Once saved, always saved OSAS (Rom 8:35,38-39).
17. The Gentiles are the new Israel [substitution theology] (Rom 9:25).
18. Christ ended the law (Rom 10:4).
19. God has rejected the Jews forever (Rom 10:21).
20. We are part of Christ's body, therefore eternally saved, since we died with Christ and were raised with Christ (Rom 12:5).
21. We should do whatever the state tells us to do, such as fight (Rom 13:1).
22. The king/President serves in place of God, and we should serve him as if serving God (Rom 13:1-5).
23. If you have love, you don't need to obey any law, because love trumps law (Rom 13:8,10).
24. We should not judge/condemn others, that is God's job (Rom 14:4).
25. It does not matter on which day one worships, or what one eats [unlike in the OT] (Rom 14:6).
26. Nothing is unclean, unless you think it is (Rom 14:20,22).

All 26 of the above are false doctrines which I cherry-picked out of context from Romans. Usually from the context, by reading around the immediate verses, one can see the above ideas are false. Otherwise one has to do a more thorough study of all scriptures to see they are false.

If however, one had read the 26 doctrines above IN CONTEXT of the story of Romans, it is unlikely one would have drawn the false conclusions which I listed above.
 
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iouae

Well-known member
I typed "Mighty Men Conference" into a search engine and came up with this:

http://www.mightymenconference.co.za/?page_id=8


THE MESSAGE SIMPLY

•Apart from being the man of the home, men also need to be Godly examples in the workplace. Whether it be the sport field, the factory, the farm, the college, the university, they need to lead from the front, by example.
•Their physical, spiritual and mental attitudes towards life must convey the fragrance of Jesus Christ in everything they do. In other words, their lifestyles must match up to what they say.
•Men need to understand that they have a responsibility, not only to the family, but to the community and then to their nation.
•They need to be responsible, when it comes to the management of finance, of moral standards, of Biblical principles.
•We are not interested in personal opinions, only God’s opinion.
•Everything they speak, must be qualified by Scripture.
•No-one is interested in quotations from men who have no standing in the sight of God.
•Each man will have his own flavor, but the message remains the same.
•Men need to be encouraged to be men, to be good fathers, good husbands, good leaders and good citizens for the benefit of the Kingdom of God.


Men being responsible Godly men. Pretty disgusting isn't it iouae and anna?

I have never heard a bad word, only praise from men who have come back from a Mighty Man Conference.

Please don't think I was criticising these. I was only saying it did not appeal to me. I am out of step on this :)

As for Pauls views on women, almost nobody addresses the scriptures which I (tongue in cheek) paraphrase where Paul does come across, to me, as a misogynist.

That said, in the kingdom I will be cleaning temple toilets, while Paul is sitting next to Christ, Mary, Martha and Lazarus at the head table. I presume then, Christ will tell Paul that he had a horribly complicated style of writing, and was a bit of a misogynist.
 
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