How the NT abuses Tanach prophecies.

Status
Not open for further replies.

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Please give me your BIBLICAL proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

I'm very curious.

When you're done I'll happily give you the Biblical proof from the Tanach that it speaks about Israel

You've repeatedly told us that Isaiah 53 = Jews (in their entirety)... and you are a "Tanakh scholar" attending a Yeshiva, right?

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. - Isaiah 52:13-15

It's pretty clear, isn't it?
 

Elia

Well-known member
You've repeatedly told us that Isaiah 53 = Jews (in their entirety)... and you are a "Tanakh scholar" attending a Yeshiva, right?

Bs"d

The servant in Isaiah 53 is the people of Israel.

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. - Isaiah 52:13-15

It's pretty clear, isn't it?

Sure.

Israel as the servant of God.

"Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high."

>> As the prophets announce, Israel will be exalted, see Isaiah 60, 61, and 62.

"As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men "

>> The servant Israel was no longer a nation when they were several times dispersed over the whole earth. People were astonished about what happened to the Jews; persecutions, crusaders who wiped out complete Jewish communities before they took off to the holy land, including women and children. There was the Christian inquisition, who had the horrible habit of torturing Jews to death, there was the holocaust in which Christian Europe murdered six million civilians, amongst them 1,500,000 children, there was plenty of reason to be upset about what befell the Jews.

"so shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand."

>> The world will be very surprised when the Jews, after almost 2000 years of exile, will come back to the holy land, and against all odds, will become very prominent amongst the nations.

"Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground;

>> With 70 souls Jacob moved to Egypt, and there, in the arid ground, despite all the hardships imposed upon the Jews, Israel became a great people.


"he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him."

>> But it was a slave people, in a horrible way suppressed by the Egyptians, who also committed genocide on the Jewish boys.

"He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

>> In Egypt, but also during the other exiles, Israel was acquainted with disasters: deportations, torture, killings. Under those conditions nobody was very happy to be a Jew. The people of Israel was despised, even by the Jews themselves who had to endure all these disasters. In those circumstances, being a Jew was not something to be happy about.

"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted."

>> Because Israel strayed away from Gods ways, it incurred the punishment connected to those sins, just like we see throughout the whole history of Israel. They correctly assumed that Israel was smitten and afflicted by God.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed."

>> Israel was severely punished for the sins of Israel, and through the punishment acquired the cure, the total remission of sins.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."


>> Israel strayed away from the law of God, and God brought the punishment for those sins upon Israel.


"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."

Psalm 44: "But for Your sake we are killed all day long; We are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
A good example of that is the holocaust, in which the Jews went like sheep to the slaughter.


"By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living,"

>> When Israel was overrun by their enemies and led into exile, it was dead as a nation. The land of Israel didn't exist anymore.

"stricken for the transgression of my people".

>> Israel stricken for the sins of Israel.

"And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."


>> Israel was conquered by and led in exile to the nations who were then economically and military on top of the world: "With a rich man in his death".
The reason for the punishment was idolatry, and not violence or deceit.


"Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;"

>> God punished Israel.

"when you make him an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;"

>> When Israel repents, and accepts the punishment from God, Israel will live again, and God's plan with Israel shall proceed.

"he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;"

>> Because Israel has been punished for it's sins, "it's travail", their sins are abolished, and God's plan for Israel will play itself out, and Israel shall see it "until satisfaction".

"by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities."

>> Israel shall through it's knowledge of God and his laws, knowledge not revealed to any other nation, turn many Israelites to a righteous path: "Fear God and observe his commandments". But when Israel strays, it will receive the punishment from God.

"Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Israel will be lifted up, because it repented from it's sins, and was severely punished for it's sins. It was (correctly) numbered with the transgressors, it bore the sins of many, and the righteous amongst them prayed for the sinners.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

And then only silence remained...

Prior to the complete destruction of Judaism, the consensus among Jewish religious leaders was that Isaiah 52:13--53:12 was about Messiah ben Joseph (Mashiach ben Yōsēf).
Of course, you belonging to post-70AD "neo-Judaism", wouldn't have-a-clue about what real Jews believed before the Current Era.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Prior to the complete destruction of Judaism, the consensus among Jewish religious leaders was that Isaiah 52:13--53:12 was about Messiah ben Joseph (Mashiach ben Yōsēf).
Of course, you belonging to post-70AD "neo-Judaism", wouldn't have-a-clue about what real Jews believed before the Current Era.

Bs"d

I don't care what "real Jews believed before the Current Era", what I care about the is the Torah and the rest of the Tanach.
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

I don't care what "real Jews believed before the Current Era", what I care about the is the Torah and the rest of the Tanach.

Of course you don't, because Judaism was "recreated" following the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, so past rabbinical sages' knowledge was lost... kaput, poof!
That's why you know nothing of the "Two Powers in Heaven" or the "Two Messiahs"... zero, zip, nada! Obviously many Jews did, as they embraced Yeshua.
 

God's Truth

New member
Bs"d

We have seen how the NT abuses and mistranslates the prophecy that Isaiah gave to king Achaz. It is ripped out of context, and turned into a messianic prophecy, which it obviously is not. That can be seen HERE.

And the horrible fact of the matter is that all the so called "messianic prophecies" that the NT brings from the Tanach are the same. The NT tries to "prove" that JC was the messiah by ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and presenting them as "messianic prophecies", which they are obviously not.

Here are some more examples, read and shiver....

Matt 2:14 “And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."”

Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: “out of Egypt I called my son” is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the “son of God” in the Tanach: “And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a “messianic prophecy”. Something it obviously is not.

Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matt 2:16-18 “Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."”
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.

And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: “10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.

Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a “messianic prophecy”.

Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matthew 2:23 “And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."”

This prophecy won't take up much time, because you can go through the whole Hebrew Bible, and NOWHERE is it written that the messiah should live in Nazareth, or the he should be called “Nazarene”.

So the NT is also giving non-existing prophecies.



Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matthew 26:14-15 "Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said, `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,"

Matthew 27: "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

This OT text can by found in Zech 11:12 "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter."

As we see here in Zechariah, there is no messiah to be seen who is being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And no potters fields are being bought in Zechariah.
As a matter of fact, in all of this text in Zechariah is no potter to be found.

No potter to be found?

No potter to be found.

The above translation of Zechariah 11:12 is from the New International Version. It says that Zechariah threw the money to the "potter" in the Temple.
In the Hebrew is written "yotseer". That can mean "potter", but it can also mean "treasurer".
In the Temple weren't any potters sitting around. Who was sitting there, was a treasurer, who accepted the gifts for the Temple.
So Zechariah doesn't speak about a potter, but about a treasurer.
This fact is recognized by the Revised Standard Version, it says here "treasurer" in stead of "potter".
Also Youngs Literal Translation says here "treasurer", and also the Contemporary English Version says here "treasury".
The Stone Edition of the Tanach says: "HASHEM (literally: "The Name) said to me, "Throw it to the treasurer of the Precious Stronghold which I have divested from them". So I threw it into the Temple of HASHEM, to the treasurer."
Also the New World Translation of the Watch Tower Society gives a good translation: At that, J-e-h-o-v-a-h said to me: “Throw it to the treasury—the majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint.” Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of J-e-h-o-v-a-h."

So what we see here, is that there is no "potter" in Zechariah, and that the whole NT story about buying land of a potter has no bearing whatsoever on the text in Zechariah.

Also we have here a clear proof that the NT text is so orchestrated that it looks as if it fulfils OT prophecies. But because of the fact that they make here another mistake in the translation, the set up is clear to see for everybody.

And there is more. Look again to Matthew 27 and see what the Christians won't tell you: "9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

So here we see that Matthew claims that this text comes from Jeremiah, when in truth, it comes from Zechariah.
Another slip up of the New Testament which is supposedly divinely inspired.

Matthew was not capable of naming the right prophet.
And this is supposed to "prove" that JC is the messiah.

Well, with friends like Matthew, you don't need enemies any more.


Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Luke 24: “44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

But the problem is: NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that “the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Another NT quote of OT prophecy which is nowhere to be found in the OT.


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

Jesus says ALL the Law and the Prophets are prophecies about him.

So then, everything you read in the Old Testament is an anti type Jesus Christ.

From the genealogy, the people chosen by God is about Christ.

Even the names of the prophets are speaking of the Christ to come.

The name Joshua or Jehoshua is a close variant of the name given by the Father, as the Son is intended to be identified with Him. Read about this in Zechariah 3:6-9.

Zechariah 3:8 "'Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

Did you read that?

All the Prophets and the Law are prophecies/symbols/anti-types of Jesus Christ.

"And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious.'' Isaiah 11:10

The scriptures about the 'Branch' are about Jesus.

"Behold, the days are coming,'' says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5-6 and: `Behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, `that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah: `In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 33:14-16

We read throughout many books in the Old Testament about the 'Branch', which proves it is a prophecy surpassing the Old Testament.

All mentions of High Priest and King in the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment of all, for Jesus to be a King and a High Priest that alone proves fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus Christ is the Rock in the wilderness that accompanied the people with Moses.

The bronze snake is the anti-type of Christ.

The sacrificial lamb of the Passover is also a prophecy about Christ. A lamb without blemish or spot, was to be chosen as a pure offering, and it’s blood was for a sign of God’s people to save them from destruction.

`Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. `So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. Exodus 12:13-14

All the Old Testament holy days were about Jesus, who was to come.

See Colossians 2:16-17

The author of the book of Hebrews speaks in detail of the ceremonial/purification law under Moses being only a “type” pointing to the more perfect law to be found in Christ Jesus.

For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.'' Hebrews 8:4-5 and: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. Hebrews 10:1.


When Moses was forbidden to cross over Jordan with the tribes of Israel, this was a prophecy about Christ. It shows us that how Moses, whom God gave the old law, could not himself cross over. The crossing over of the river Jordan into the land of Canaan was about salvation, not by the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. Through the water. The water is about the Holy Spirit.

Moses says, "I am one hundred and twenty years old today. I can no longer go out and come in. Also the Lord has said to me, `You shall not cross over this Jordan.' "The Lord your God Himself crosses over before you; He will destroy these nations from before you, and you shall dispossess them. Joshua himself crosses over before you, just as the Lord has said. "And the Lord will do to them as He did to Sihon and Og, the kings of the Amorites and their land, when He destroyed them.”The Lord will give them over to you, that you may do to them according to every commandment which I have commanded you. "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.'' Then Moses called Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, "Be strong and of good courage, for you must go with this people to the land which the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall cause them to inherit it.”And the Lord, He is the one who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.'' Deuteronomy 31:1-8

The crossing of the Jordan which is a prophecy of salvation, Canaan is a prophecy too, of sanctification. The tribes of Israel were to go through the land, not coveting the things which God declared to be dedicated to destruction, but in obedience destroying those things which would be temptations to sin.

Luke 24:7 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

John 5:39
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,


Which scriptures is Jesus speaking about? Jesus is speaking about the Old Testament, for the New Testament had not yet been written.

Jesus is the only one who was without blemish and did not fail in anything that God said.

Moses failed and could not enter the promised land.

The Lord gave a tremendous victory to Joshua and the tribes of Israel at the city of Jericho, but a terrible defeat at Ai, all because the man named Achan, the son of Carmi, submitted himself to his covetousness and the lust of his eyes, and took some of the treasure banned by God, and hid it in his tent.

Israel was also commanded to put all the Canaanites to death, because their evil practices would be a snare and a trap for the people to draw them away from God. However, Israel made compromises and eventually allowed some of the Canaanites to stay in the land as servants and slaves, and these did become troubles for them that would harass them and rob them of their peace and bring them under the curses of God against those who are disobedient.

Jonah is an anti-type of Christ when he was three days in the whale, and how people of Nineveh had to repent to be saved.
 

Elia

Well-known member
How does Isaiah 53 apply to Ephraim? And where was Ephraim when his grave was made with the wicked? Where was Ephraim buried?

Bs"d

“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence”

Done no violence? “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60

He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I understand the displeasure of the OP, but there is another sense of fulfillment that the apostles were referring to. They didn't mean just the plain item by item thing. They meant that the history of Israel was arriving at that which all the previous had pointed to.

The ultimate of these is the preaching in Acts 13 where the resurrection of Christ is the fulfillment of all promises to the fathers...
 

Elia

Well-known member
It was part of his baptism. Do you understand NT baptism?

Bs"d

Burial is not the same as baptism. Just check a dictionary.

Can you understand that JC was not buried with the wicked, and therefore this verse: "And they made His grave with the wicked" cannot apply to him?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Can you understand that JC was not buried with the wicked, and therefore this verse: "And they made His grave with the wicked" cannot apply to him?

To this day we are buried with Christ for the remission of sin.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Do you have wifi in your coffin?

We are buried in water united with the living Christ and then resurrected to walk with him in a new life as a new being.

This is totally foreign to the blinded Jewish mind and will probably remain that way.
 

Elia

Well-known member
We are buried in water united with the living Christ and then resurrected to walk with him in a new life as a new being.

This is totally foreign to the blinded Jewish mind and will probably remain that way.

Bs"d

I can only hope so.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top