Again, the title was not mine, nor the link. I have a pastor friend I grew up with, not a Calvinist, that preached this message and asked that it be linked by his friends. You are on a crusade. One that doesn't listen. Well, I appreciate you hate this but for me, and if you just▲ read AMR▲
it is a scriptural/logical issue, not Calvinist specific. Literally, we are just scapegoated for 'what is found in scripture' and logically derived. Okay! Great! Tell me your logic and how to handle those very scriptures (kind of sad in a thread not about that, though). Regardless, do so here, or in another thread. I've been very careful to discuss MAD with you in an intelligent and respectful manner. As well, others have made it a deal breaker as well. I guess I'm the odd-man-in. Talk to me. I simply think you are 'wrong.' Paul says to gently correct. Imho, you are over-reacting to a nonissue. It has not a lot to do with interfering with the gospel (none imho). Rather, it is the scope of the gospel. As I told you in PM with scriptures, even you know it is a narrow way. :doh: You know this. Tell me how you handle this knowledge. What does it mean. Explain it to me.
AMR has explained this in threads well, if not to you specifically. He has said repeatedly that the sufficiency is there. If the whole world were to repent, His work is sufficient. That is never what most of us Calvinists are arguing.
In a nutshell and an encapsulated sentence: God would not shed His blood 'for' one He knows isn't going to be saved by Arminian, Calvinist, or even Open Theist standards. Questions before denial: Do you believe in Universal 'salvation?' Are you an Open Theist? Is the Way narrow?
Okay... So.. you acknowledge that God died for All mankind... Even those that will most likely perish in their sins?
I asked if you really believed that God didn't die for those that rejected Him...
You have followed through with... "I don't"
This requires absolutely zero use of vague theological terms like Calvinism and Arminianism...
In fact.. only obfuscation would come of blending seminary terms with this straight forward conversation. I want to specify a matter... I and you are adamantly apposed to ANY and ALL limiting of what Jesus accomplished on the Cross. I and you are bound in brotherhood in compassion for those that are washed in doubt or deceived that God is ANYTHING... but Love.
There... global thinking... "engaged". Posturing... dismissed.
However... to heat this up a bit... I have noted you scuffling with Robert Pate... and honestly... allow me to be direct... Pate rails against "So-Called"... "Hyper-Calvinist Precepts". Most of us in the Open and Dispensational camp distinguish between the two.
I buried my hatchet with "Calvinism"... quite a bit back... but... and I emphasize but... here comes the core concern of the matter...
Calvinism arrogantly reaches to inject extra biblical Precepts... via extra biblical prescription and recorded statements of faith... that threaten the purity of the gospel with scripture... alone. You... do not do this. You encourage the Bible and Spirit approach on a continual basis and have even provided me with one of my favorite lines of communication. "We must let Jesus and the Bible mold us and not attempt to reverse the order of that simple and powerful commitment."
The danger of glamorizing a more biblical "Calvinism"... is... that some that are weak in faith may believe that [MENTION=6223]beloved57[/MENTION] and [MENTION=15399]Nanja[/MENTION] 's brand ... also [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION] 's and Mr. Nang' brand of Calvinism are good.
The sad truth is that Some become fruit inspectors and are prone to squash all biblical dialogue that is speculative... outside the works of "reformed" Commentary, Decree and Declaration.
I keep these cards close to my chest... normally... because I haven't felt it necessary to address... but Calvinism is an aggressively rehashed collection of Papal decree... filtered through the lens of men that resisted the institution of power... but maintained a vast volume of core theological values that were dispensed by the "Universal" "Mother" of "Brick and Mortar".
I consider myself neither Protestant or Catholic... because I believe that Jesus is the FOUNDATION of the Universal... Invisible Body of Believers. I believe that the Holy Spirit works through all modes of "Hyphenated Christians"... and this includes... Calvinists and Catholics... HOWEVER... I resist the idea that any institution of MAN should ever be placed in between myself and our MAKER.
Thus... I "choose" "Open Theology" as my NASCAR Sponsor... and paint it on the side of my Witness Race Car... to convey that God is our God of "Personal and Collective... progressive Revelation" ... and "Perpetual Dialogue" of scriptures... to be... continually free in discussion of scripture... "Through the Lens" of Jesus Christ as my and others... ONLY TEACHER... through His Holy Spirit.... and recognize that while His teachings and HOLY Scriptures are "Inerrant".... we are not.. and thus.. our perception is recognized as PERCEPTION and NOT Canon.
Calvinism is "Closed" theology that stakes the claim that all that is to be studied is FULLY Studied and Revealed. Western Eschatology roots in this very ideal. I don't believe that declaring that Scripture has been neatly interpreted and Conveyed correctly by extra biblical men or women... is ever a GOOD approach.
To be direct... Neither do you! Musty called you out... yesterday ... and identified that you can't straddle the fence of theology. He further articulated a truth... that so called "Hyper Calvinists" tend to be more direct about what they believe. And... if it isn't the gospel dismemberment that is vomited out of the mouth of Hyper-Calvinists... that hangs Calvinism on its own gallows.. it is the Obfuscation of So called "Progressive?" Calvinists that struggle to pound the square peg of Calvinism into the simplistic Jesus Hole of the Nitty Gritty Gospel that over complicate smack that is easy enough for a kid to understand ... and "that" OVERCOMPLICATION ... again... hangs Calvinism on its own gallows.
[MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] is a fair shooter that looks out for all of us that glorify Jesus and Recognize the supremacy of the Spirits ability to teach us... in conjunction with the God enacted preservation of Scripture... and I mean Scripture that is available to us as a deep tool of study, discussion and application. I dropped Shermans name... because I need to point out that this forum is available to perpetuate fresh discussion of scripture... and to be blunt... Nang... Nanja... Beloved57 and others would be at every corner to disrupt that... by exalting Calvinism as superior to Sola Scripture... in full recognition of what Sola really means... and [MENTION=9508]Robert Pate[/MENTION] prevents that from occurring by perpetually nipping the issue in the bud. Yes.., I know Robert has many abandoned threads... but... Robert serves an important purpose! He challenges the reasoning of men and women that exalt man's teachings above Jesus. It's that simple.
If Robert were to stop... the Hyper Precepts of Calvinism would be plastered on every OP and with charges of blasphemy issued to anyone who dared question the Supremacy of reformed understanding that is Christmas wrapped in the Name of John Calvin. That's not a good thing. You obviously are refreshed by the challenging dialogue that comes from the "Open" discussion of scripture... and thus... ToL is an oasis away from your overly dogmatic counter parts. Can you deny that? Do you "loath" or "enjoy" the challenging look at scripture that this Christ and following in the John 5:39 of the matter... scripture... centric site offers?
Calvinism is a Papacy... it decrees what scripture "actually" "means" and accordingly.., retards OPEN... Dialogue from Acts 11:26 types that want to be searchers and not just... passengers.
Calvinism supposes that understanding Calvinism is understanding God and thus... scripture is not a medium of searching... but a simple matter of the study of Doctrines of men that say what scripture means.
You can Tip Toe around it Lon... but your mind, heart and Soul do not allow you to stifle genuine search... even if it walks off the path of what Calvinism Pre Destines as the "Correct" Supposition.
I say all of this from my heart.. and know your replies are also as such...
So let's get right to it...
Is salvation Available to ALL mankind?
Is rejection of the Gospel a result of God's Will... or Human Choice?
Do you believe that blood will pour so much farther and SAVE so many more than we can even comprehend?
I know you Lon... your answers are Yes... Human Choice... and Yes... But you filter that through the obfuscation of Calvinism and thus... you formulate the Gospel through the Hyperbole of your respect for men that claim the title of a system of belief that you "support"... and yet deviate from on many occasions.
Why do you do this? Love for your human friends and fellow searchers. That's why... but Lon... How many Crucibles... B57's and Nanja's do you want screwing up the gospel?
By endorsing Calvinism... you unknowingly open others up to claiming a Hyper... or as [MENTION=15685]musterion[/MENTION] eluded earlier.... more direct form... of Calvinism.
Either you are attempting to guide those of Calvinism out of their LA misconceptions and Hyper views... or you are seeking to guide others into them. You can say neither... but you and AMR endorse "Calvinism".
Cocaine is medically useful for eye surgery and many other applications... should I now endorse "Cocaine" and hope that no one mistakes what I mean by doing so?
My point? ... I shut my mouth out of Love for you and AMR and focused on those that are deceived as to who Jesus is... and as we have both done together... those who remove the Jesus of the matter in respects to Who He Is.... but... I feel this is appropriate to write at this time... You and AMR remove yourselves from the Global Calvinist consortium and distinguish "Hyper Calvinism" from "Your Understanding" of Calvinism. Do you see where I'm going with this?
