ECT How is Redemption coupled to Salvation?

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". . . . the righteousness of God [Redemption] which is by faith *of Jesus Christ [not our faith] unto all and upon all them that *believe [*trust in and rely upon as a lifestyle] Romans 3:22 (KJV)

*When in the grave, Jesus was alone; stripped of all He possessed, even His relationship with his Father, however temporary; left with but His faith in His Father for the successful outcome of His Love sacrifice for those in the grave, both living and dead. That is what Paul is explaining.
 
Delmar

Delmar

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Are not Redemption and Salvation just different words for the same thing? Pretty close anyway.
 
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Delmar said:
Are not Redemption and Salvation just different words for the same thing? Pretty close anyway.
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Not as I read it. We had nothing to do with redemption. Redemption is a historical fact. Believing for it is where the problem lies with those willfully ignorant. Jesus said: Go make disciples from those who are waiting to know. [My paraphrase] If I be lifted up from your life I will draw them to me. [more of my paraphrase] . . sort of a revealing way to look at it but the truth of our lives must remain open to us for that which opposes His indwelling life that we deal with it.

Redemption was the free unmerited gift. Receiving the "Fullness" of it requires something from us.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Cross Reference said:
Not as I read it. We had nothing to do with redemption. Redemption is a historical fact. Believing for it is where the problem lies with those willfully ignorant. Jesus said: Go make disciples from those who are waiting to know. [My paraphrase] If I be lifted up from your life I will draw them to me. [more of my paraphrase] . . sort of a revealing way to look at it but the truth of our lives must remain open to us for that which opposes His indwelling life that we deal with it.

Redemption was the free unmerited gift. Receiving the "Fullness" of it requires something from us.
Click to expand...

False comment not found in scripture !

Those Christ died for have been redeemed, and reconciled to God by His death, even while they are yet enemies, and unbelievers Rom 5:10, so they received the benefit of Christ's death while unbelievers !
 
I

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beloved57 said:
False comment not found in scripture !

Those Christ died for have been redeemed, and reconciled to God by His death, even while they are yet enemies, and unbelievers Rom 5:10, so they received the benefit of Christ's death while unbelievers !
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Beloved, I don't think you grasped his split. He is splitting the two slightly where you are; he means the same things are unmerited. What you could object to is his use of 'fulness.'
 
I

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Cross Reference said:
Not as I read it. We had nothing to do with redemption. Redemption is a historical fact. Believing for it is where the problem lies with those willfully ignorant. Jesus said: Go make disciples from those who are waiting to know. [My paraphrase] If I be lifted up from your life I will draw them to me. [more of my paraphrase] . . sort of a revealing way to look at it but the truth of our lives must remain open to us for that which opposes His indwelling life that we deal with it.

Redemption was the free unmerited gift. Receiving the "Fullness" of it requires something from us.
Click to expand...



Hey folks, when you get to this level, you need to realize that you can't just used the two terms without saying something about the definition; only then can you go on to the question of distinction.

Usually 'salvation' is understood as the largest possible term for God's saving work. It would include justification, redemption, atonement, future glorification and present transformation. Of course, there are times when 'saved' gets used and means one of these, momentarily. For ex., Rom 11:26 about that 'Israel'. The use of Isaiah shows us that he means 'to have sins taken away.' (That is the line that John the Baptists used in describing Christ). It is not about a future restoration of theocracy in Judea, etc.

The most important distinction is:
1, Justification is God's work for us in Christ in history, outside of us.
2, Transformation is God's work in us through the Spirit now.

Redemption, atonement, propitiation, imputed righteousness--all these have to do with #1. Btw, in the letter to Hebrews 'to make holy once for all' is also in this category. He is not talking about sinlessness there.
 
I

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beloved57 said:
He teaches salvation by works, by what a person does!
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Clearly not. He's just saying that faith without works is dead. Follow the James analogy closely:

As the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead.

What I hear you saying is that a corpse is equal to an animated, talking, walking person. Not. I've always been fascinated by this line by James, because we would tend to say that the body is the external thing that needs to produce things; but he is saying that the body is already there. It has to have a life.

Perhaps you know the scene in DOC MARTIN where the gruff, rude curmudgeon thinks he can just act nice and caring as a home-visit doctor and it will carry the day. Louisa, who is also a potential love-interest, counters his cerebrality:

"It's not enough to make yourself do the right things, Martin, you have to want to."
DM: "Why?"

Louisa lets it go because he has to figure this out on his own.

If Christianity did not speak to whether we 'have to want to,' it would end up as just an externality, and certain short lists of externalities would be called Christian. That's why the unbeliever always first conceives of a Christian as following certain rules and 'looking' a certain way. The unbeliever does that! A mature Christian would not.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Clearly not. He's just saying that faith without works is dead. Follow the James analogy closely:

As the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead.

What I hear you saying is that a corpse is equal to an animated, talking, walking person. Not. I've always been fascinated by this line by James, because we would tend to say that the body is the external thing that needs to produce things; but he is saying that the body is already there. It has to have a life.

Perhaps you know the scene in DOC MARTIN where the gruff, rude curmudgeon thinks he can just act nice and caring as a home-visit doctor and it will carry the day. Louisa, who is also a potential love-interest, counters his cerebrality:

"It's not enough to make yourself do the right things, Martin, you have to want to."
DM: "Why?"

Louisa lets it go because he has to figure this out on his own.

If Christianity did not speak to whether we 'have to want to,' it would end up as just an externality, and certain short lists of externalities would be called Christian. That's why the unbeliever always first conceives of a Christian as following certain rules and 'looking' a certain way. The unbeliever does that! A mature Christian would not.
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Yes he does teach that salvation is by works, by what a person does!
 
I

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But what does he mean?

1, Does he mean we add our efforts to Christ's to be justified? or
2, Does he mean, exactly as James said, that faith without works is a corpse that has no life?
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Interplanner said:
But what does he mean?

1, Does he mean we add our efforts to Christ's to be justified? or
2, Does he mean, exactly as James said, that faith without works is a corpse that has no life?
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He said:


Redemption was the free unmerited gift. Receiving the "Fullness" of it requires something from us.
Click to expand...

The statement is a Lie. It speaks to Salvation by works. Redemption produces the full effects Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That didnt require anything to be done or received by the redeemed sinner, Christ's Redemptive Death alone produced those effects ! The effects are " a purified people zealous of good works"
 
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beloved57 said:
He said:




The statement is a Lie. It speaks to Salvation by works. Redemption produces the full effects Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That didnt require anything to be done or received by the redeemed sinner, Christ's Redemptive Death alone produced those effects ! The effects are " a purified people zealous of good works"
Click to expand...


<Calvinism at it worst or best or, whatever>.
 
I

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beloved57 said:
He said:




The statement is a Lie. It speaks to Salvation by works. Redemption produces the full effects Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.





That didnt require anything to be done or received by the redeemed sinner, Christ's Redemptive Death alone produced those effects ! The effects are " a purified people zealous of good works"
Click to expand...



So is there no role for human planning, initiative, intention to accomplish something worthwhile? No Muellers? No Schaeffers? No Family Research Council?
 
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beloved57 said:
He said:




The statement is a Lie. It speaks to Salvation by works. Redemption produces the full effects Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That didnt require anything to be done or received by the redeemed sinner, Christ's Redemptive Death alone produced those effects ! The effects are " a purified people zealous of good works"
Click to expand...

The truth is you who can't you read what I post that has never suggested salvation by works?

I have repeatedly said that redemption was the enablement for man to enter directly into the presence God. Think of it as the curtain in the temple; the veil that separated the holy of holies from everyone else being split making it possible for "all who will" [it within themselves] to enter into the salvation of God. Now, is that works salvation?????

“Because thou hast kept the word of My patience.” Apparently you must believe Spirit tenaciousness is a work for salvation.
 
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beloved57

beloved57

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It truth it is you who can't you read, what I post that has never suggested salvation by works?

I have repeatedly said that redemption was the enablement for man to enter directly into the presence God. Think of it as the curtain in the temple; the veil that separated the holy of holies from everyone else being split making it possible for "all who will" [it within themselves] to enter into the salvation of God. Now, is that works salvation?????

“Because thou hast kept the word of My patience.” Apparently you must believe Spirit tenaciousness is a work for salvation.
Click to expand...
Salvation by works!
 
beloved57

beloved57

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So what is the point in trying to discuss with you anything pertaining to God if that is all you have to offer? What are people supposed to think about what is left of your ability to think if the easy stuff is beyond you?
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I don't know what you talking about! You teach the false doctrine of salvation by works, by what a person does! What is it to discuss ?
 
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