ECT How is Paul's message different?

[patrick jane]

Is the Holy Spirit given under the old law or the new?

It was after Christ's resurrection and ascension. What do you think ? :think:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Why do you get so cranky when other's challenge your theology, Clete? Could it be because you can't defend it?

All the madists are the same.

They have very little grace if any.

LA

 

[turbosixx]

It was after Christ's resurrection and ascension. What do you think ? :think:

That is exactly what I think. So do we receive the Holy Spirit based on the old covenant or the new covenant?

 

[turbosixx]

Okay, that's it!

I'm fed up to my gills with people who don't want to have a discussion but are here to simply spout their personal opinions and who feel too put out to explain themselves when I can't read their minds.

If you don't want to make a clear argument then why the crap are you even here? This is only a fun pass time if you aren't a hack! Go find something worthwhile to do! Go ride a bike or fly a kite or something that requires less time and mental effort.

I will ignore any other posts that look or feel anything like either andyc's or Cross Refferences' posts. You can waste your own time, I'm finished with wasting mine.

:Clete:

Our discussion didn't continue as I had hoped. Lets' see if we can pick it up again. If I remember right, we were talking about the differences of Peters Acts 2 and Paul's Acts 13 sermon. I don't remember what you see as different. I do remember you saying Acts 2 was about Israel and Jesus being their Messiah. Here is my reply.

Acts 13 is the about the same thing.
16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

23 From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,


After looking at post by others, I think the root of our disagreement is who are God's people and the kingdom.

Update:
I found your reply on post 103 and the added one. I will go over it and reply back to that post. Is there a way to know when someone replies to you and not the thread?

 

[turbosixx]

How can this be?

Acts 15

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

So are you saying Peter preached a different gospel to Cornelius than he did on Pentecost? I see one gospel to the Jew and the Gentile.

Paul has the same thing. To the Jew first then the gentile. Both of them go to the Jew and gentile. Therefore, Galatians 2 is a lie or it is the message, not the audience. Your claim and Acts 15 are incompatible. I don't expect a legitimate reply to me or Clete.

I think we are not understanding what the other is saying. I"m saying Gal 2 says "the" gospel to the Jew and "the" gospel to the Gentile. Same gospel just different audience. Peter working with the Jews who had thousands of years of old habits to break and Paul to the Gentiles where God working with them is all new.

You don't even acknowledge what they say;

James

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

When Paul talks about he flesh he is talking about the law of Moses. They wanted to keep doing the things of the law because for thousands of years that's what made them the people of God. Later in the chapter he makes it clear he is talking about the law of Moses.

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise;

Salvation is by faith in Christ not the law of Moses.

 

[turbosixx]

You understand it wrong.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;


There are two gospels there.

One gospel with different audience.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Cross Reference]

One gospel with different audience.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Amen! End of discussion.

 

[heir]

All the madists are the same.

They have very little grace if any.

LA

says the poster who threatens the beheadings of TOL members

 

[turbosixx]

This, I think, illustrates a major mistake most Christians make. Not just on dispensational issues but on every issue. They take individual passages and apply them as though they exist in a vacuum. The book of Acts is a historical account of the transition from one dispensation to another. In fact, the very existence of the book of Acts is an argument in favor of the idea that the dispensation changed at some point after Calvary because otherwise there would be no need for the book of Acts to begin with, at least not a doctrinal need for it. But Acts 13 was not written by itself. It is just a continuation of the story line and CANNOT be removed from that context without confusion.

Agreed.

As I've been reading and trying to figure out how to respond to this objection I keep coming around to the notion that I'd have to basically write a commentary of most of the book of Acts to really cover all the bases here but time just will not allow for such a thing and so I'm going to give you an answer that I really sort of hate to give you because it will be woefully incomplete and is likely to only create more questions than it answers and may perhaps be counterproductive to convincing you of anything. My hope is to convince you to at least look into the subject with more detail than is possible on a web forum.

So, here goes nothin'...

Yes, it's very tough to get points across as intended and a knowledge of the bible on both sides really helps.

In Acts 10 & 11 God informed the Twelve that the Gentiles were no longer "unclean" and were acceptable without the need to become proselyte Jews (i.e. be circumcised etc.). Next, in Acts 12 you have a 2nd murder of a follower of Christ which sort of bookends God's turning to the Gentiles. You have the murder of Stephen in Acts 8 by the religious leaders of Israel and then the murder of James in Acts 12 by the political leader of Israel. Then in Acts 13 & 14 God makes it clear to the nation itself, the people of Israel, that He has turned to the Gentiles.

Right off the bat Paul and Barnabas are separated for their ministry to the Gentiles (Acts 13:2)

Paul preached, at first, to both Gentiles (Acts 13:12) and to the Jews but the Jews simply rejected Paul's message which was quite different than anything that had come before.

[Paul] went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day...and said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, Listen:... From [King Davids] seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior----Jesus... sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent... (Acts 13:14, 16, 23, 26)​

All of which sounds fine but then Paul drops the following bomb on them...

and by [Jesus] everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39​

This truth cannot be found in the law of Moses itself, nor any of the Old Testament, nor the Gospels and not even in the book of Acts until Paul begins his ministry.

I was with you up to this point.

And the Jews opposed the things preached by Paul and so Paul and Barnabas sort of got in the Jew's face and said fine! If you judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, we'll go to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:43 & 45)

In chapter 14 Paul preaches to everyone without distinction and many believed (Acts 14:1). Some even thought they were Zeus and Hermes! And you should note that there is no record of the Twelve having to deal with this sort of thing since they never went to the Gentiles but ministered only to the believers in/of Israel.

And finally, at the end of chapter 14 Paul emphasizes that God had turned to the Gentiles...

Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.​

Notice, "God had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles."!

The "door of faith" had been shut to all nations accept Israel prior to God turning to the Gentiles in Acts 9. Basically speaking, starting from Abraham, when he received the Covenant of Circumcision up until the conversion of Paul on the Damascus Road, salvation went to the Jews or to proselytes (i.e. you either had to be a Jew or become one). Everything prior to Acts 9 was about the Jews and the nation of Israel.

Going back to the gospels through Acts 2...

The death of Christ (Feast of Passover)
Christ in the grave (Feast of Unleavened Bread)
Christ's Resurrection (Feast of First Fruits)
The giving of the Holy Spirit (Feast of Weeks or Pentecost)​

All of these feast occurred ON THE ACTUAL DAY OF THE FEAST, precisely on time in direct fulfillment of prophecy. The next would have been the Feast of Trumpets and then the Day of Atonement followed by the Feast of Tabernacles. None of which were fulfilled as expected (some believe that Tabernacles was fulfilled with Christ's birth based on the wording of John 1:14). The question is why?

Acts 8 - 14 is why. With the stoning of Stephen, God began the process of casting away Israel and turning instead to the Gentiles.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I agree with everything you have said except we see the end of the old covenants and the beginning of the new happening at different times. I would think the answer to this question should make it clear one had ended and the new began so here it goes.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

By what covenant did they receive the Holy Spirit and have their sins forgiven?

 

[tetelestai]

One gospel with different audience.

:thumb:

That's correct.

One gospel preached to two very different groups of people.

 

[heir]

One gospel with different audience.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Nope. There are two right there. Those who can count see two: 1. the gospel of the uncircumcision and 2. the gospel of the circumcision. That's two!

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

The gospel OF the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul (1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV) and the gospel OF the circumcision was committed unto Peter.

Your use of Romans 1:16 KJV doesn't help your case if it was as you say, "One gospel with different audience" as they shook on it that Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

So why was Paul going to the Jew first all throughout the Acts period?

 

[heir]

:thumb:

That's correct.

One gospel preached to two very different groups of people.

LOL

 

[turbosixx]

Turbosixx,

One further point on what is preached in Acts 13 by Paul being different than that preached by the Twelve. Compare what Paul says in verse 39 with what Peter says in Acts 10:35...

Paul:
Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Peter:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.​

This is the central difference between the two gospel messages and it is also the key difference on either side of countless, seemingly unrelated doctrine debates that began in Paul's day (over circumcision) and continues to this day (over everything from water baptism to whether you have to go to church on a particular day of the week to tithing to just about you name it).

Resting in Him,
Clete

I'd really like to focus on the differences between Peter's sermon Acts 2 and Paul's Acts 13. If I understand MAD correctly, they shouldn't be the same but they are.

To comment anyway, Peter says "works righteousness" not "works of the law". Peter isn't preaching adherence to the law of Moses. He is preaching Christ.
10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

 

[tetelestai]

LOL

Paul to the Galatians:

(Gal 1:18 KJV) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Years later, Peter to the Galatians:

(1 Peter 1:1 KJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

According to you, Peter should have been accursed, because according to you Peter preached a different gospel to the Galatians than the one Paul preached to them.

There was never two different gospels.

Your Hyper-Dispensationalism is a false teaching that is very easily refuted with scripture.

 

[tetelestai]

Peter even tells his audience that Paul had preached to them

(2 Peter 3:16 KJV) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As we see above, Peter acknowledges that Paul wrote to the people Peter was preaching to.

According to heir, Peter and Paul preached different gospels.

heir's Hyper-Dispensationalism is a mess.

 

[turbosixx]

So why was Paul going to the Jew first all throughout the Acts period?

I could ask you the same question. If I understand you correctly did he preach two different gospels, one for Jew and one for Gentile?

He went to them first because he loved his country men and wanted them to be saved.
Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
Rom. 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

 

[tetelestai]

So why was Paul going to the Jew first all throughout the Acts period?

Read the parable of the wheat and tares.

Throughout Acts, the destruction of the Jews was near. From 66AD to 70AD over a million Jews were killed in Judaea.

 

[way 2 go]

Nice Neg Rep...



That's a coward's move Nick, but I shouldn't expect much more from you.



Then do it!

Scripture please.

Put up or shut up as they say.

yes Gen 15:6 then no Gen 17:10

Abram

1st covenant
promise
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

blood shed
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

abram was asleep (faith only)
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.

God confirmed the covenant
Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces


-------------
Gen 16:16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
--------------

need 2nd covenant

promise


Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

 

[way 2 go]

the real question is
when did the requirement for circumcision end ?

 

[Nick M]

So are you saying

My question is what are you saying. You claim Galatians 2 is proclaiming one gospel to different groups. Peter says otherwise. How do you respond to Peter saying Jew first then gentile for his ministry?

I think we are not understanding what the other is saying. I"m saying Gal 2 says "the" gospel to the Jew and "the" gospel to the Gentile.

I know you are. That cannot be, or Peter is lying in Acts 15. They both can't be true.

Peter working with the Jews who had thousands of years of old habits to break and Paul to the Gentiles where God working with them is all new.

7And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

I will get to your misdirection after you explain the statements in Acts 15 and Galatians 2.

Peter says by his mouth the gentiles will hear his gospel.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.