ECT How is Paul's message different?

[Jerry Shugart]

The difference between the two groups and their respective message can most clearly be seen in the following two passages....

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.​

So are you saying that those who received James' epistle could not be saved apart from works even though the Scriptures reveal that everyone who is saved is saved by grace?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

The following words of James make it plain that those who received his epistle were saved by the gospel and nothing more:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Peter says the same thing:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

Peter certainly understood that his salvation was on the principle of grace:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

 

[turbosixx]

Why does the Bible point out the fact that the first ones called Christians were not those in Jerusalem for YEARS with the CHRIST?

Because that was the first time someone called them Christians. I don't see any difference because they were converted the same as those before and Christians were still called disciples all the way up to Paul's arrest. Disciple of Christ and Christian are both followers of Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Because that was the first time someone called them Christians. I don't see any difference because they were converted the same as those before and Christians were still called disciples all the way up to Paul's arrest. Disciple of Christ and Christian are both followers of Christ.

Nope... they were not the same.

Peter.... under the law.
Paul.... not under the law.

Peter... keys to the kingdom.
Paul... no keys.

Peter... one of the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Paul... one apostle for the one body.

Etc. etc. etc.

You just will not learn, even though you say that you want to.

 

[turbosixx]

You just will not learn, even though you say that you want to.

I think it's safe to say you and I will never agree.

 

[Right Divider]

I think it's safe to say you and I will never agree.

That is simply because you reject scripture.

Clete has also tried to help you and yet I see that years later....you still ask the same wrong questions and ignore differences in the ministries of Paul and Peter.

The twelve will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel... Paul will not.

 

[Tambora]

One of the most critical things that a Christian must learn is that he cannot live the Christian life. It is Christ who lives His life through us by faith. It cannot be done through the flesh. And this is really critical - The law, any law, has to do with the flesh.

The whole post was great!

Just adding some support that there is not any law that can make you righteous.


Galatians 3 KJV
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The whole post was great!

So you agree with what Clete said here?

This is Paul's Gospel (Romans 2:16 & 16:25; II Timothy 2:18). It does not exist outside of Paul's epistles and if Paul's epistles did not exist we would all be Messianic Jews or the equivalent.

Are the following words of Peter not the same gospel which Paul was first given?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

And what about Peter's words here?:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

 

[musterion]

That is simply because you reject scripture.

Clete has also tried to help you and yet I see that years later....you still ask the same wrong questions and ignore differences in the ministries of Paul and Peter.

The twelve will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel... Paul will not.

Paul says believers will judge angels. Some believers? All believers? I'm not sure, but does Peter give any indication of the same to his readers?

 

[musterion]

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were. . .redeemed. . . from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; ​

Redeemed from what?
​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Redeemed from what?

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

The Greek word translated "redeemed" means "to liberate by payment of ransom" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

And here is the "ransom" which liberates all believers:

"For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Mk.10:45).​

Redemption by the blood of the Lamb is the heart and soul of the gospel of grace which declares that all believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Do you think that the gospel which was first given to Paul is the same gospel Peter speaks of here?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

 

[Right Divider]

Paul says believers will judge angels. Some believers? All believers? I'm not sure, but does Peter give any indication of the same to his readers?

Just another of the million differences.

 

[musterion]

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

The Greek word translated "redeemed" means "to liberate by payment of ransom" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

And here is the "ransom" which liberates all believers:

"For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Mk.10:45).​

Redemption by the blood of the Lamb is the heart and soul of the gospel of grace which declares that all believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Do you think that the gospel which was first given to Paul is the same gospel Peter speaks of here?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

You're being evasive again, or you can't read.

I didn't ask HOW, I asked WHAT.

Peter says they were redeemed from WHAT?

Go back and notice the red.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're being evasive again, or you can't read.

I didn't ask HOW, I asked WHAT.

Peter says they were redeemed from WHAT?

The same exact thing all of the Gentiles believers are redeemed from.

An unbeliever is viewed as a slave "sold under sin" (Ro.7:14) and under the sentence of death (Ro.6:23) but areableto be redeemed by the purchase price, the blood of the Lamb.

Now that I have answered your question tell me what Gentile believers are redeemed from.

And of course you continue to refuse to answer if the following words of Peter are in regard to the same gospel which was first given to Paul:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).​

Same gospel or different gospel?

And again, exactly what is it that the Gentile believers are redeemed from?

 

[john w]

And of course you continue to refuse to answer ...

Gay old man Jer., the infamous bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, spams that "you continue to refuse to answer" to every poster, on TOL, on every third post, regardless of the topic, thread.That is his MO/shtick on TOL, besides being a bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, not a bible corrector.

 

[Clete]

I'm glad we agree Paul's epistles are written to Christians. From your explanation above I believe we're in agreement but I want to be sure. I really want to address the rest of your post but to keep it simple and establish a sort of foundation before moving on I would like to make sure we're on the same page.

I believe it's clear in the address of Paul's epistles that he is talking to Christians like in this address to the church at Corinth.
2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Can we agree that they are in Christ and therefore have received grace?

Paul was NOT, I repeat - NOT - addressing Peter's converts or any member of the Kingdom.

No member of the Kingdom (i.e. those saved under the Kingdom Gospel) were saved by what I would call "the gospel of grace", which is what I assume you mean by "received grace". The gospel of grace was preached exclusively by Paul and did not pertain to the Twelve or any of the their converts.


Keeps asking such questions until its clear because my bet is that what I just said muddied the water for you. It is critical that we define terms before proceeding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

The whole post was great!

Just adding some support that there is not any law that can make you righteous.


Galatians 3 KJV
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

This is really and truly the whole point of the gospel of grace.

Indeed, the lesson of history, from the moment Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil up to the stoning of Stephen is "that there is not any law that can make you righteous", as you so rightly put it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was NOT, I repeat - NOT - addressing Peter's converts or any member of the Kingdom.

Were not Peter's converts addessed here by Paul?:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Cor.1:2).​

 

[turbosixx]

Paul was NOT, I repeat - NOT - addressing Peter's converts or any member of the Kingdom.

No member of the Kingdom (i.e. those saved under the Kingdom Gospel) were saved by what I would call "the gospel of grace", which is what I assume you mean by "received grace". The gospel of grace was preached exclusively by Paul and did not pertain to the Twelve or any of the their converts.


Keeps asking such questions until its clear because my bet is that what I just said muddied the water for you. It is critical that we define terms before proceeding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I agree we need to clarify the points that we are trying to get across.

Ok, for arguments sake let's say he's not addressing Peter's converts. Sticking with the Corinthians, can we agree that they heard Paul's message of the "gospel of grace" and are in Christ?

What did Paul proclaim to them so that they would believe?

 

[musterion]

The same exact thing all of the Gentiles believers are redeemed from.

Evaded it again.

That's not what the red YOU quoted says.

Context means nothing to you. Shugartism is everything to you now.

In the passage YOU cited, WHAT did PETER say his readers had been redeemed from?

If you have an honest bone left in your body, answer it FROM THE PASSAGE YOU CITED.

 

[musterion]

Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were. . .redeemed. . . from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;