ECT How is Paul's message different?

Clete

Truth Smacker
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My answer to your comment on accreditation of righteousness should address this. Your comment doesn’t change the fact that Christians are given instructions.
The only instructions we are given in regards to being righteous is simply to be righteous and do not put yourself under the law.

There is no list of rules, no Christian ten commandments, if you will. There could be no such set of rules because if any set of rules could have produced righteousness, the Mosaic Law was it.

If you do or do not do because you've been instructed then you have turned that instruction into a law and it will not produce righteousness, it will kill you just the same as the Mosaic Law did. Death is the purpose of the law, not life. The Spirit produces life, the letter (law) kills.

I agree, we are in the same boat as Adam but I disagree with your assessment of his situation. Adams choice wasn’t law or love God, but love God or love himself. He was already under law, “do not eat of the tree”. How did Adam show his love for God? In my understanding, every time he desired to eat of the forbidden fruit but did not because he was instructed not to, he loved God more than himself. What does the bible tell us about loving God/Jesus?
I agree! I certainly could have worded my comment better but you've fixed it. I will fix it further...

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is The Law. They are two manifestations of the same thing, an alternative to God. The parallels between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (hereafter 'the Tree') are many...


The Tree is the ministry of death. Gen 2:17
The law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7

Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 2:17
Do not partake of the law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4

In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17
In the day you partake of the law, you will die. Rom. 7:9

By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22
By the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:7

The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17
The law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20

The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom 5:18-19
The law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16

The Tree of Life is in the new heaven, but not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Ezek. 31:15; Rev. 22:14
The Law of the Spirit is in the new heaven, but not the Law of Death. Rom. 8:2; 7:6

Further, Christ became a curse for us. How? By hanging on a tree!

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

We then have indeed been returned, as believers, to the same state in which Adam and Eve were in, namely with no law save one.

For Adam and Even is was:
DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

For us it is:
DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE LAW.

When you do partake of the law, you are essentially biting again from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Do we as Christians need to understand good and evil?
Heb. 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Of course!

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.​

Do you suppose that righteousness or any understanding of it is not possible without the law? That's what your question implies and from a certain perspective you could say that you're right. That is to say that before we came to Christ we were separated from God because of sin and thus had no way to understand righteousness apart from the law, which is why God, in His mercy, gave the law. The law convicts us of sin, teaches us that we are evil and, if we repent, then God reconciles Himself to us through Christ. But once that reconciliation has occurred we are returned again to having the choice which Adam had. That choice being reliance on the Tree for understanding or reliance on God!

You, as a believer, don't need instructions, rules or regulations. You need God - period.

I don’t know if this is your intention, but you make it sound like I don’t have a choice. I agree that righteousness is only accredited in Christ but it’s me making the decision based on my knowledge of what pleases God and my love for God. I agree, if I don’t do it unwillingly and grudgingly it will be of no credit to me.
Of course it is still we who are living our lives but now our lives are not lived because of rules but because of faith in Christ.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

So yes, its you living your life, the question is are you living it by faith or by the rule book. The question is, are you living your life believing that Christ has already made you righteous, believing that you cannot be better than you are.

Living by faith means just that. It means that you accept the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ and what that position implies concerning your righteousness. We are taught (only by Paul, by the way) that we are hidden in Christ and that we are righteous in Him. We are taught that we have been crucified in Him and therefore raised to life in Him. We accept these biblical facts by faith and then Christ sets about completing the work through us. The Christian life is not about trying to live a righteous life, its about accepting the fact that we are already righteous and leaning (resting) entirely upon the strength of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing that He will do His own work in and through us. Our part is to love God - that's it.

I have no intentions of resurrecting the law. Through the law no one could be justified. Because we are no longer under the Mosaical law doesn’t mean we are not under law.
There is no other law by which righteousness can come.

Galatians 3:21b For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.​

The law has not been replaced, it has been abolished.

Correct me if I’m wrong but, isn’t that what Paul is saying here? Paul recognizes he is not under that law of Moses but then says he is not without law.
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
You've removed this passage from its context. Paul is not talking about law vs. grace. He's merely making a distinction between those under the law (i.e. Jews) and those who do not have the law (i.e. Gentiles). He is simply saying that to the Jews, he goes as a Jew and the the Gentiles he does not go as a Jew.

What you're suggesting here is that one law has been replaced with a different law, that the Mosaic Law and been replaced with the Law of Christ. That's true but only as a play on words. The Law of Christ, alternatively called the Law of Love or the Law of the Spirit, is no law at all. Christ is not under the law, Christ was killed by the Law. He did not die under one law so that He could create another nor could He create another even if He wanted to. As I said before and as Paul explicitly stated, if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law (i.e. the Law of Moses).

You missed my point. God substituted two of Jacobs sons in the twelve tribes using Josephs two sons instead. Why couldn’t God do the same and substitute one of the 12 for Paul?
For what reason would God do such a thing?

Which of the Twelve do you nominate for expulsion?

If God had any intention of doing such a thing, He failed to mention it in scripture. There is simply no evidence that any of the Twelve were deficient or needed replaced. Matthias was chosen according to the authority Jesus Himself gave to the remaining Apostles before His ascension and God sanctioned their decision when Matthias received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

I see Peter instructing Christians and instructing them things concerning Christ. I do not see Peter or any other of the 12 teaching to old law. What does being a Christian have to do with the old law if he nailed it to the cross?
I've explained this before.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

If Peter, James, and John taught the same thing as Paul, where the need for Paul in the first place?

If Peter, James and John taught the same thing as Paul why then did the Twelve renounce the Great Commission, agreeing to minister to Israel while Paul went to the whole world? (Gal. 2)

If Peter, James and John taught the same thing as Paul why then is the line that separates each side of so many doctrinal debates between the Pauline epistles and the whole rest of the bible (never mind the New Testament)?

I said it once before and I say it again here. The gospel of Grace is taught by Paul and Paul alone. If not for the Pauline epistles we would all be Messianic Jews (or the equivalent). Meaning that we would worship on Saturday, we would observe the Feasts (minus the animal sacrifices), we would all wear Yarmulkes and have tassels on our clothing in keeping with millennia old Jewish tradition.

If Peter is teaching these Christians a work based law and Paul is not, are there different types of Christians? Is the dividing wall still up?
There were two groups but there isn't any longer.

Remember that the calling of God is irrevocable. If called as a member of the Circumcision (i.e. under the Law) you remained a member of that group and vise versa.

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

This transition period from one Dispensation to the next is a major reason why the book of Acts is so critical. Without the book of Acts, Paul's books would rightly be rejected as teaching a false religion.

I’m sorry if I seem to be stuck but I’m having a hard time accepting what you’re telling me. You keep telling me of the up side but you never talk about the down side. Is there no down side?
Nope! No down side!

Well, actually there is a big down side but not in the way you mean it.

Can a person be a believer and live like the world?
Of course they can! Believers do it all the time and they do it to their own shame and to their own detriment.

You cannot out sin God's grace. A believer is saved because he is a believer not because he turns his life around and does good deeds and refrains from evil. If you think otherwise it is precisely because you, without intending to, have resurrected the law.

The down side isn't that the worldly Christian is lost but that his sin hurts himself and those around him, it upsets God and grieves the Holy Spirit. His sin costs him the effectiveness of his witness as well as rewards in heaven. And worst of all, others may even reject Christ altogether as a result of the sins Christians commit.

I'd consider that an enormous downside, wouldn't you?

If not, why not if our works, good or bad, do not count and only our faith? When I see examples of people being judged in the bible, people in the same situations are separated by their deeds not their confession or belief.
Well, look we have deeds and we do works and we will be given rewards based on those works but Paul addresses this issue directly and states explicitly that some works won't count. A lot of works will be burned up and the believer will be saved himself but as through fire.

I Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

Why does Paul claim to have laid the foundation here?
What foundation is he talking about? He says that the foundation is Christ Jesus but what does he mean by that? Paul didn't execute Jesus, Paul didn't resurrect Jesus, Paul didn't have anything to do with Calvary nor was he even present during Christ's ministry. So what foundation is Paul claiming here to have laid?

That is a question you cannot answer under your current paradigm. There is no answer for it unless you accept that Paul's message was substantively different that that of the Twelve.

The answer is the Dispensation of Grace!

Ephesians 3: 1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

Okay, I'm out of time for now! That's long enough of a post anyway. I look forward to your reply!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Cross Reference

New member
The only instructions we are given in regards to being righteous is simply to be righteous and do not put yourself under the law.

There is no list of rules, no Christian ten commandments, if you will. There could be no such set of rules because if any set of rules could have produced righteousness, the Mosaic Law was it.

If you do or do not do because you've been instructed then you have turned that instruction into a law and it will not produce righteousness, it will kill you just the same as the Mosaic Law did. Death is the purpose of the law, not life. The Spirit produces life, the letter (law) kills.


I agree! I certainly could have worded my comment better but you've fixed it. I will fix it further...

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is The Law. They are two manifestations of the same thing, an alternative to God. The parallels between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (hereafter 'the Tree') are many...


The Tree is the ministry of death. Gen 2:17
The law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7

Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 2:17
Do not partake of the law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4

In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17
In the day you partake of the law, you will die. Rom. 7:9

By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22
By the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:7

The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17
The law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20

The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom 5:18-19
The law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16

The Tree of Life is in the new heaven, but not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Ezek. 31:15; Rev. 22:14
The Law of the Spirit is in the new heaven, but not the Law of Death. Rom. 8:2; 7:6

Further, Christ became a curse for us. How? By hanging on a tree!

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

We then have indeed been returned, as believers, to the same state in which Adam and Eve were in, namely with no law save one.

For Adam and Even is was:
DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

For us it is:
DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE LAW.

When you do partake of the law, you are essentially biting again from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.


Of course!

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.​

Do you suppose that righteousness or any understanding of it is not possible without the law? That's what your question implies and from a certain perspective you could say that you're right. That is to say that before we came to Christ we were separated from God because of sin and thus had no way to understand righteousness apart from the law, which is why God, in His mercy, gave the law. The law convicts us of sin, teaches us that we are evil and, if we repent, then God reconciles Himself to us through Christ. But once that reconciliation has occurred we are returned again to having the choice which Adam had. That choice being reliance on the Tree for understanding or reliance on God!

You, as a believer, don't need instructions, rules or regulations. You need God - period.


Of course it is still we who are living our lives but now our lives are not lived because of rules but because of faith in Christ.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

So yes, its you living your life, the question is are you living it by faith or by the rule book. The question is, are you living your life believing that Christ has already made you righteous, believing that you cannot be better than you are.

Living by faith means just that. It means that you accept the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ and what that position implies concerning your righteousness. We are taught (only by Paul, by the way) that we are hidden in Christ and that we are righteous in Him. We are taught that we have been crucified in Him and therefore raised to life in Him. We accept these biblical facts by faith and then Christ sets about completing the work through us. The Christian life is not about trying to live a righteous life, its about accepting the fact that we are already righteous and leaning (resting) entirely upon the strength of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing that He will do His own work in and through us. Our part is to love God - that's it.


There is no other law by which righteousness can come.

Galatians 3:21b For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.​

The law has not been replaced, it has been abolished.


You've removed this passage from its context. Paul is not talking about law vs. grace. He's merely making a distinction between those under the law (i.e. Jews) and those who do not have the law (i.e. Gentiles). He is simply saying that to the Jews, he goes as a Jew and the the Gentiles he does not go as a Jew.

What you're suggesting here is that one law has been replaced with a different law, that the Mosaic Law and been replaced with the Law of Christ. That's true but only as a play on words. The Law of Christ, alternatively called the Law of Love or the Law of the Spirit, is no law at all. Christ is not under the law, Christ was killed by the Law. He did not die under one law so that He could create another nor could He create another even if He wanted to. As I said before and as Paul explicitly stated, if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law (i.e. the Law of Moses).


For what reason would God do such a thing?

Which of the Twelve do you nominate for expulsion?

If God had any intention of doing such a thing, He failed to mention it in scripture. There is simply no evidence that any of the Twelve were deficient or needed replaced. Matthias was chosen according to the authority Jesus Himself gave to the remaining Apostles before His ascension and God sanctioned their decision when Matthias received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.


I've explained this before.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

If Peter, James, and John taught the same thing as Paul, where the need for Paul in the first place?

If Peter, James and John taught the same thing as Paul why then did the Twelve renounce the Great Commission, agreeing to minister to Israel while Paul went to the whole world? (Gal. 2)

If Peter, James and John taught the same thing as Paul why then is the line that separates each side of so many doctrinal debates between the Pauline epistles and the whole rest of the bible (never mind the New Testament)?

I said it once before and I say it again here. The gospel of Grace is taught by Paul and Paul alone. If not for the Pauline epistles we would all be Messianic Jews (or the equivalent). Meaning that we would worship on Saturday, we would observe the Feasts (minus the animal sacrifices), we would all wear Yarmulkes and have tassels on our clothing in keeping with millennia old Jewish tradition.


There were two groups but there isn't any longer.

Remember that the calling of God is irrevocable. If called as a member of the Circumcision (i.e. under the Law) you remained a member of that group and vise versa.

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

This transition period from one Dispensation to the next is a major reason why the book of Acts is so critical. Without the book of Acts, Paul's books would rightly be rejected as teaching a false religion.


Nope! No down side!

Well, actually there is a big down side but not in the way you mean it.


Of course they can! Believers do it all the time and they do it to their own shame and to their own detriment.

You cannot out sin God's grace. A believer is saved because he is a believer not because he turns his life around and does good deeds and refrains from evil. If you think otherwise it is precisely because you, without intending to, have resurrected the law.

The down side isn't that the worldly Christian is lost but that his sin hurts himself and those around him, it upsets God and grieves the Holy Spirit. His sin costs him the effectiveness of his witness as well as rewards in heaven. And worst of all, others may even reject Christ altogether as a result of the sins Christians commit.

I'd consider that an enormous downside, wouldn't you?


Well, look we have deeds and we do works and we will be given rewards based on those works but Paul addresses this issue directly and states explicitly that some works won't count. A lot of works will be burned up and the believer will be saved himself but as through fire.

I Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

Why does Paul claim to have laid the foundation here?
What foundation is he talking about? He says that the foundation is Christ Jesus but what does he mean by that? Paul didn't execute Jesus, Paul didn't resurrect Jesus, Paul didn't have anything to do with Calvary nor was he even present during Christ's ministry. So what foundation is Paul claiming here to have laid?

That is a question you cannot answer under your current paradigm. There is no answer for it unless you accept that Paul's message was substantively different that that of the Twelve.

The answer is the Dispensation of Grace!

Ephesians 3: 1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

Okay, I'm out of time for now! That's long enough of a post anyway. I look forward to your reply!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Where does one even begin to sort out all that error by proxy?
 
Paul's message doesn't differ one whit since Genesis 1. The revelation of God to mankind is an ongoing, unfolding process. It wasn't until finding TOL I ever even heard of some of this different gospels talk, which is to say that, whatever is going on, it's some new fad or resurrected heresy, when Reformed Christianity of Bible believers has always strongly maintained there is complete Bible harmony, because there is. Paul merely expanded some on what Jesus Christ taught, put some mysteries in plain, literal language, and, also, Paul's teaching, except where he stated he was speaking as a man, is Christ's teaching, all scripture inspired of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. You can't have other gospels in the first place, other than of Jesus Christ.

Generally speaking, like some of these newer variety Hebrew Roots cults popping up, when somebody has some "new" doctrine or religion the previous generations didn't share, be best advised it's time for you to head for the exits of that "church." When somebody who's been a Christian for decades, and seeking Bible scholarship that whole time, has never heard of your Christianity and its new teachings, like this different gospel of Paul stuff, somebody invented your Johnny-come-lately doctrine, and bottom line? There's some deception going on.

The gospel is completely consistent, even in its smallest, mysteriously veiled roots of the suffering Messiah found in Old Testament prophecy and historic events recorded that point forward to Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is also the gospel Paul taught. When you know the Bible, you see that the Bible is Jesus Christ, from cover to cover.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Like I said, it pointed to Christ.

It is now obsolete and always will be.


7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


You best stop thinkin' about what class of human you belong to and start applying the words of Christ to yourself.

This second time you speak of is on it's way, but it aint what you think it is.

You will cry like a baby for that loud mouthed old Esau man of yourn.:chuckle:

More grunts, snorts, mutterings, talk show musings/opinions, from the junkie, void of scripture, as he uses the pages of his mess of bibles, to roll a few more joints, who would not know the difference between Jude, of "Hey, Jude," and the book of Jude.

Have a seat, pot head, stoned out Jeff Spicoli, Jr., as you are quite irrelevant on our(my emphasis) site.

Can you dig it, dude?
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
I'll reiterate what I said, God has ALWAYS had only one plan.
Yes, He Lord of heaven and earth. God has a purpose for heaven and earth. Do we all inherit the same thing? Have people throughout the Bible been required different things by God for those inheritances?

God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge did not/could not reveal His plan in one swoop to the whole of humankind. Humankind would not have accepted it (and didn't even when He came).
I never said God revealed everything at once. I'm not sure why you fight the fact that God in His wisdom (the hidden wisdom of God) kept some things secret until He wanted them revealed. And that He revealed things that were kept secret since the world began and were then revealed to and through Paul should not bother you one bit, but here you are.
Therefore; God throughout the ages gave pieces of His plan to humankind thru the different people He chose to use, e.g., Adam, Abel, Cain, Methuselah, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc.
God using men is not to say He required of them the same thing.

The LAST piece of God's plan was given to Paul.
The dispensation of the gospel, the dispensation of God and the dispensation of the grace of God were committed and given Paul. The manifold wisdom of God that was a mystery, not made known unto the sons of men as it was then "now revealed" was
before hid in God. (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV). Why fight this truth? And why the need to call something that was obviously not the same as something that was spoken earlier as it was kept secret until God wanted it revealed the "same gospel"?
Now, in this dispensation of time, different than the dispensation of time(s) past, humankind has the WHOLE plan of God in front of them --- Jesus Christ and His Work on the Cross of Calvary.

Same Gospel, for God only has one.
That's made up!
Different pieces of God's gospel revealed at different times throughout the dispensation of time(s).
God has revealed His whole gospel to humankind.
made up
 
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heir

TOL Subscriber
You don't know what I believe.
You believe not.

There is no loss of reward.
The loss suffered at the judgment is a loss of reward!

There is only the loss of yer expectation of a reward.

After the fire, one knows what the reward is.
If you are saved (and that's the only way you will be there) your work will be tried by fire as to what sort it is. Only the work that is gold, silver, precious stone will abide the fire. The rest (wood, hay, stubble) will go up in smoke!

With you fighting the foundation Paul laid, I can't imagine you will even be there. You've much more to be concerned with.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
You believe not.

The loss suffered at the judgment is a loss of reward!

If you are saved (and that's the only way you will be there) your work will be tried by fire as to what sort it is. Only the work that is gold, silver, precious stone will abide the fire. The rest (wood, hay, stubble) will go up in smoke!

With you fighting the foundation Paul laid, I can't imagine you will even be there. You've much more to be concerned with.

Paul laid Christ and Christ's words as the foundation.

Yer the one fighting it.

:think:
 

turbosixx

New member
The only instructions we are given in regards to being righteous is simply to be righteous and do not put yourself under the law.

There is no list of rules, no Christian ten commandments, if you will. There could be no such set of rules because if any set of rules could have produced righteousness, the Mosaic Law was it.

If you do or do not do because you've been instructed then you have turned that instruction into a law and it will not produce righteousness, it will kill you just the same as the Mosaic Law did. Death is the purpose of the law, not life. The Spirit produces life, the letter (law) kills.


I agree! I certainly could have worded my comment better but you've fixed it. I will fix it further...

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is The Law. They are two manifestations of the same thing, an alternative to God. The parallels between the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (hereafter 'the Tree') are many...


The Tree is the ministry of death. Gen 2:17
The law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7

Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 2:17
Do not partake of the law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4

In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17
In the day you partake of the law, you will die. Rom. 7:9

By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22
By the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:7

The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17
The law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20

The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom 5:18-19
The law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16

The Tree of Life is in the new heaven, but not the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Ezek. 31:15; Rev. 22:14
The Law of the Spirit is in the new heaven, but not the Law of Death. Rom. 8:2; 7:6

Further, Christ became a curse for us. How? By hanging on a tree!

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

We then have indeed been returned, as believers, to the same state in which Adam and Eve were in, namely with no law save one.

For Adam and Even is was:
DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

For us it is:
DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE LAW.

When you do partake of the law, you are essentially biting again from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.


Of course!

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.​

Do you suppose that righteousness or any understanding of it is not possible without the law? That's what your question implies and from a certain perspective you could say that you're right. That is to say that before we came to Christ we were separated from God because of sin and thus had no way to understand righteousness apart from the law, which is why God, in His mercy, gave the law. The law convicts us of sin, teaches us that we are evil and, if we repent, then God reconciles Himself to us through Christ. But once that reconciliation has occurred we are returned again to having the choice which Adam had. That choice being reliance on the Tree for understanding or reliance on God!

You, as a believer, don't need instructions, rules or regulations. You need God - period.


Of course it is still we who are living our lives but now our lives are not lived because of rules but because of faith in Christ.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

So yes, its you living your life, the question is are you living it by faith or by the rule book. The question is, are you living your life believing that Christ has already made you righteous, believing that you cannot be better than you are.

Living by faith means just that. It means that you accept the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ and what that position implies concerning your righteousness. We are taught (only by Paul, by the way) that we are hidden in Christ and that we are righteous in Him. We are taught that we have been crucified in Him and therefore raised to life in Him. We accept these biblical facts by faith and then Christ sets about completing the work through us. The Christian life is not about trying to live a righteous life, its about accepting the fact that we are already righteous and leaning (resting) entirely upon the strength of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing that He will do His own work in and through us. Our part is to love God - that's it.


There is no other law by which righteousness can come.

Galatians 3:21b For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.​

The law has not been replaced, it has been abolished.


You've removed this passage from its context. Paul is not talking about law vs. grace. He's merely making a distinction between those under the law (i.e. Jews) and those who do not have the law (i.e. Gentiles). He is simply saying that to the Jews, he goes as a Jew and the the Gentiles he does not go as a Jew.

What you're suggesting here is that one law has been replaced with a different law, that the Mosaic Law and been replaced with the Law of Christ. That's true but only as a play on words. The Law of Christ, alternatively called the Law of Love or the Law of the Spirit, is no law at all. Christ is not under the law, Christ was killed by the Law. He did not die under one law so that He could create another nor could He create another even if He wanted to. As I said before and as Paul explicitly stated, if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law (i.e. the Law of Moses).


For what reason would God do such a thing?

Which of the Twelve do you nominate for expulsion?

If God had any intention of doing such a thing, He failed to mention it in scripture. There is simply no evidence that any of the Twelve were deficient or needed replaced. Matthias was chosen according to the authority Jesus Himself gave to the remaining Apostles before His ascension and God sanctioned their decision when Matthias received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.


I've explained this before.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

If Peter, James, and John taught the same thing as Paul, where the need for Paul in the first place?

If Peter, James and John taught the same thing as Paul why then did the Twelve renounce the Great Commission, agreeing to minister to Israel while Paul went to the whole world? (Gal. 2)

If Peter, James and John taught the same thing as Paul why then is the line that separates each side of so many doctrinal debates between the Pauline epistles and the whole rest of the bible (never mind the New Testament)?

I said it once before and I say it again here. The gospel of Grace is taught by Paul and Paul alone. If not for the Pauline epistles we would all be Messianic Jews (or the equivalent). Meaning that we would worship on Saturday, we would observe the Feasts (minus the animal sacrifices), we would all wear Yarmulkes and have tassels on our clothing in keeping with millennia old Jewish tradition.


There were two groups but there isn't any longer.

Remember that the calling of God is irrevocable. If called as a member of the Circumcision (i.e. under the Law) you remained a member of that group and vise versa.

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.​

This transition period from one Dispensation to the next is a major reason why the book of Acts is so critical. Without the book of Acts, Paul's books would rightly be rejected as teaching a false religion.


Nope! No down side!

Well, actually there is a big down side but not in the way you mean it.


Of course they can! Believers do it all the time and they do it to their own shame and to their own detriment.

You cannot out sin God's grace. A believer is saved because he is a believer not because he turns his life around and does good deeds and refrains from evil. If you think otherwise it is precisely because you, without intending to, have resurrected the law.

The down side isn't that the worldly Christian is lost but that his sin hurts himself and those around him, it upsets God and grieves the Holy Spirit. His sin costs him the effectiveness of his witness as well as rewards in heaven. And worst of all, others may even reject Christ altogether as a result of the sins Christians commit.

I'd consider that an enormous downside, wouldn't you?


Well, look we have deeds and we do works and we will be given rewards based on those works but Paul addresses this issue directly and states explicitly that some works won't count. A lot of works will be burned up and the believer will be saved himself but as through fire.

I Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

Why does Paul claim to have laid the foundation here?
What foundation is he talking about? He says that the foundation is Christ Jesus but what does he mean by that? Paul didn't execute Jesus, Paul didn't resurrect Jesus, Paul didn't have anything to do with Calvary nor was he even present during Christ's ministry. So what foundation is Paul claiming here to have laid?

That is a question you cannot answer under your current paradigm. There is no answer for it unless you accept that Paul's message was substantively different that that of the Twelve.

The answer is the Dispensation of Grace!

Ephesians 3: 1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

Okay, I'm out of time for now! That's long enough of a post anyway. I look forward to your reply!

Resting in Him,
Clete

I will answer the rest latter but I would like to know how you see this.

What does it mean to love God? How can we know that we love God?
 

lifeisgood

New member
Yes, He Lord of heaven and earth. God has a purpose for heaven and earth. Do we all inherit the same thing? Have people throughout the Bible been required different things by God for those inheritances?
I'll reiterate what I said, God has ALWAYS had only one plan. In that one plan there are different parts, however, the PLAN has always been one. That has never changed. That will never change. For God only has one Word.

I never said God revealed everything at once.
Never said you did.

I'm not sure why you fight the fact that God in His wisdom (the hidden wisdom of God) kept some things secret until He wanted them revealed. And that He revealed things that were kept secret since the world began and were then revealed to and through Paul should not bother you one bit, but here you are.

I am not fighting God in His Wisdom.

I take the whole of the Bible and have reached the same conclusion that Paul did — Jesus Christ and His Work on the Cross of Calvary is God's fulfilled plan for humankind from since before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

However, I will never agree with Paul if I do not understand the ‘hidden’ parts of God’s plan and that is found in the shadow/types of the OT — the Temple, the Altar, the Laver, the sacrifice, etc.

As I have said previously in other threads, if I do not understand the OT the NT makes no sense at all. It's just hanging there.

God using men is not to say He required of them the same thing.

Never said He did.

The dispensation of the gospel, the dispensation of God and the dispensation of the grace of God were committed and given Paul. The manifold wisdom of God that was a mystery, not made known unto the sons of men as it was then "now revealed" was before hid in God. (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV). Why fight this truth? And why the need to call something that was obviously not the same as something that was spoken earlier as it was kept secret until God wanted it revealed the "same gospel"?

God has ALWAYS only had ONE gospel/purpose/way for humankind. Not 10, not 2, just ONE — Jesus Christ and His Work on the Cross of Calvary — hidden in the OT – revealed in the NT.

Before the last piece of information was given to Paul, God winked at people’s ignorance (Acts 17:30), but NOW, that God has given to Paul the last piece of God’s plan, man is without excuse (Romans 1:20).

God has NOW revealed His whole gospel to humankind, giving to Paul the last piece of God’s gospel/purpose/way to humankind.

God’s purpose/gospel was revealed in pieces starting in Genesis 3:15. NOW that God has revealed His Whole Plan, man is without excuse.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand and accept.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Where does one even begin to sort out all that error by proxy?

Translation:

I (Cross Reference) don't know my own doctrine well enough to present a counter argument. All I can do is present my unsupported, opinion based opposition to that for which I have no substantive answer but I'll throw on the phrase "by proxy" at the end to make it at least sound like I'm not completely stupid.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Translation:

I (Cross Reference) don't know my own doctrine well enough to present a counter argument. All I can do is present my unsupported, opinion based opposition to that for which I have no substantive answer but I'll throw on the phrase "by proxy" at the end to make it at least sound like I'm not completely stupid.

Stupid?? or foolish??
 
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