Homeschooling Robs Children

SOTK

New member
Originally posted by Yorzhik

My comment had little to do with your discussion with Christine. I was talking about your kids in public school. They will have respect for their elders despite their public school training, not because of it. Did you read what John Gatto had to say? The evidence is compelling.


The man doth protest too much, methinks; "ridiculous and hurtful remark!"? C'mon, it wasn't that bad. Your kids are in danger, you should reconsider. But I'll admit that shaming you into the correct position may not be the best tactic. However, please listen to sound reason and remove your kids from public school.


Then you don't understand the danger your children are in.


I see you no problem dishing it out. Why can't you take it?


I should support the destruction of your children with brotherly love and acceptance? Now that really upsets me. If someone told you to accept a mother murdering her children with "brotherly love", wouldn't you be incensed at that suggestion?


It's not too much to ask. Just convince me that public schools don't destroy kids as the mountains of evidence so far shows they do. And BTW, there is no shame in being on the side with the greatest evidence, so why do you suggest that I reserve my shame for myself?

Look, the problem with most Public Schools is not necessarily the School. It's parents. Sure, there are bad school administrators and there are bad teachers. Some Public Schools in some states and in some cities are probably terrible, however, the success of a child's education isn't completely dependent upon the school, the teacher, or the administrators. The success of the child's education is dependent upon the active involvement of the parents in their children's lives.

If a kid fails, it's because his parents let him fail. Most schools offer solid curriculum and most teachers are good teachers. In fact, most teachers have my sincere respect. My dad is a teacher, my grandmother was a teacher, and I have three aunts and one cousin who are teachers. What a fantastic job! Yes, they get paid for this job, but they are also being of service. They need support from their communities and from their classes' parents, because it is a big job. If they fail, it's because their classes' parents failed them. It always goes back to the parents. If a child is struggling, the parent needs to step in. If a parent wants their child to learn more on a subject, than the parent needs to step in.

Speaking of parental involvement, my family is Christian. We are raising our children as Christians. They are involved in our Church, go to Sunday School, choir, Awana, and are taught the Bible by their parents. As I'm sure you do, we parent with God and His Word in mind. Our kids are taught to have faith and to lean on Him. Forgive me for saying this, but I sometimes wonder how much faith you have in your children and in God by how much some of you homeschoolers fear Public Education. Sure, some things at school are different than what is taught at home. They experience different schools of thought and meet different children who are raised differently. You fear this. I can see it in your words. I just don't. I really don't think it confuses them as much as you would have us Christian Public School supporters believe. In fact, I've seen the opposite. I think it strengthens the Christian child's faith as well as provides opportunites for growth, for compassion, for realistic questions, for witnessing, and for love.

So, danger? My kids are only in danger if I abandon them from my involvement in their education.......from their lives. What do you think, Yorzhic, Christian familes who choose public education are not involved? What do you think.....that we just have them go to school and call it good? No, we most certainly don't. My wife volunteers in our kids classes and I visit often. Besides this, there are huge amounts of time spent with our kids and their homework as well as our own brand or twist on what they have learned. A lot of you "Christian" homeschoolers attempt to paint the average Christian public schoolers as stupid and uninvolved.....that we are monsters for sending our kids to Public School.

See, this is why I get so upset with Christians like you. You aren't any better than the dysfunctional organized religion type Christians that I have chosen to stay away from for so long. You seem to have it in your head that if a Christian doesn't do something which you think is Christian we aren't Christian. I know, I know.....you haven't said that, but that's what I perceive to come next. Christine came dangerously close to that and might have well said it. It's in her words and it's in yours. It's in a lot of posters I see at TOL who go out of their way to blast Public Education and any Christian who chooses to not completely agree that Homeschooling is the only option. Case in point; you just attempted to paint an even worse picture of me by comparing my support of public education with abortion....murder. That I'm causing the destruction of my kids like I would if I aborted them! You're sick, and I feel sorry for you.

You have done nothing but convince me that I have made the right decision and as Nori has warned....... pushed me even further away from ever considering homeschooling, or at the very least, supporting it. In fact, other than Nori and a few other homeschoolers I respect at TOL and in my own life, I'm beginning to have a low opinion of most of you.

There.....that's more than I was gonna post and more than you deserve. This all started because I stated that it was "okay" to believe in other options besides homeschool. I was attacked....not the other way around. In fact, I have stated from the beginning that it's a personal decision. A parent's decision.....a decision which is none of your business and none of mine. If you take anything away from this argument, I hope you take away that. As I have said before, homeschoolers are entitled to their opinions. In the future, I just hope some of you learn to "sell" it in a different way. Obviously, attempting to demonize us isn't gonna work.

SOTK
 
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Christine

New member
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Christine, I don't have any more or less respect for you. It had nothing to do with the smilie. It was what you said. In a way, it's funny because I usually tell :jessilu: that it's pretty much the way she says something and not what she says. In this case, it was what you said, not how you said it.
:nori:
I hope you don't think that comment was spurned just by SOTK's question/comments to you. I said that based on the comments of SOTK to me in the other thread, and based on the way he treated me when we were discussing literature once. SOTK acts like you shouldn't be critical of something (be it school, literature, etc) unless you've read the book, been through school, etc. I agree that with somethings, experience is good. If I was going to tell SOTK how to fix his car, it'd be best if I'd done that before, but if I was going to tell him why not to read Playboy, I don't think it's necessary for me to have read it. The same, IMO, applies here. It is not necessary for me to have attended public school, considered sending children to public school, etc in order for me to know how wrong and evil they really are. Of course, I have facts and evidence to back up my stance, just not personal experience.


I care very deeply for both you and SOTK. You need to realize that it's not your job to convince him that he should homeschool his kids. The way you've been going about trying to convince him of the error of his ways is obviously not working. If anything, it's turning him further against homeschooling.
As I told you in my response to your PM :nori: I am not trying to "boss" SOTK, raise his kids, or anything else of the kind. I am debating homeschooling VS public schooling with SOTK, not attacking him, or his family.

In this case, I think you need to learn a little tact. :) In my opinion, what you said was disrespectful to SOTK. I know you (and others) don't see it that way. I watched the whole thing between you and SOTK in the other thread as well. I noticed that he didn't start getting disrespectful of you until you wouldn't lay off telling him that he was wrong, under any circumstances, for sending his children to public school. It's not your call, Christine. It's his.
I wouldn't lay off under any circumstances????? What are you talking about, I walked away from that thread refusing to even respond to him because he had such a bad attitude. :confused:
He felt that your harping on him about homeschooling after he told you that it was his decision was disrespectful. You, obviously, don't think it is disrespectful to tell an adult parent how to raise his children.
:nori: Again, I'm not telling him how to raise his children. It's his job to do, and his decisions to make. If he jumps in to homeschooling threads on TOL, and tells homeschoolers such as myself some of his views, he can expect those views on education to be challenged. I'm not personally attacking him or undermining his authority as a parent, I'm merely involved in a discussion on TOL, which happens to be on homeschooling. :)
 

Lighthouse

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I got the point Lucky. I just don't think comparing public school to porn is viable.
 

Turbo

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She didn't! :doh:

Christine just said that firsthand experience is not necessary to have a valid opinion or engage in a debate on either topic.

I would add that it's not fair to dismiss someone's views on public/homeschooling just because that person isn't a parent. That form of argument is similar to when pro-aborts say that men shouldn't speak out against abortion because they can't get pregnant, or that women who have never experienced a "crisis pregnancy" are in no position to condemn abortion.

I am NOT saying that sending your kids to public school is the moral equivalent of abortion. But hopefully we all agree that abortion is wrong and no one here would not to me, Christine, lighthouse, or SOTK speaking out against abortion regardless of the pro-abort's preference that we keep silent.

SOTK, I've been meaning to give you a call about this. (My computer's keyboard is messed up so I haven't been posting much.) We are to love our neighbor and hold back those who are wandering toward the slaughter, and in Christine's mind that is what she is doing. Christine believes that sending kids to public school is wrong and endangers kids, and you disagree. You two can debate who is right and who is mistaken if you want, but telling Christine and others (including myself) that we should stay silent because we are not parents is off-base.

Like I said, I was planning on calling you about this, but I'd decided to post it here in hopes of making Christine's point more clear to lighthouse. (Deja vu, eh? ;))
 

Delmar

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I don't think she was. She was using one truth to demonstrate another. That you don't have to wallow in the mud to know it will get you dirty!
 

Yorzhik

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lighthouse wrote
Comparing Playboy to public school?
-and-

lighthouse wrote
I got the point Lucky. I just don't think comparing public school to porn is viable.
You're so far off base you sound like Hilston... only not as smart.
 

Yorzhik

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Christine wrote:
...here is a good rebuttal article of the first post on this thread.
Not very well done. But definitely done better than the letter by Boyce!

Perhaps the person that did the rebuttal follows the martial arts philosophy of never being too much better than your opponent.
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by Yorzhik
Perhaps the person that did the rebuttal follows the martial arts philosophy of never being too much better than your opponent.
:noway:
Which martial art espouses that philosophy?
 

Yorzhik

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Which martial art espouses that philosophy?
I heard it from a martial arts teacher. IIRC, the reason behind it is that you don't want to teach your enemies your great secrets, and you don't want to gloat in front of an enemy because that weakens you in your next encounter. Makes sense to me in a Sun Tzu sort of way.
 
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Lighthouse

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I DIDN'T THINK CHRISTINE WAS EQUATING PORN TO PUBLIC SCHOOL! :mad::madmad:

I just think porn was a bad choice to make her point.

Turbo-
SOTK was pointing out that Christine had no business condemning him for sending his children to public school. Not that she didn't have a basis for advocating public school was bad.
 

firechyld

New member
The basic points raised by the author are valid... they just become less rational when they're taken to the extreme, as they were in this instance.

The exact same statement can be used against those in the pro-homeschooling camp... the basic points are valid, but they just appear silly when taken to the extreme. Unfortunately, this is common.

What I'm getting at is that there clearly exist benefits to each schooling system. However, the prescence of these positives is NOT proof of the opposing system's negatives. One system being good does not automatically mean that the other is bad.

The author unjustly condemns homeschooling. But I think many involved in this thread have done public schooling the same injustice. Neither system is guaranteed to fail, and that's a simple fact.
 

Yorzhik

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quote:
lighthouse wrote

Comparing Playboy to public school?


I just don't think comparing public school to porn is viable.
Then lighthouse wrote:
I DIDN'T THINK CHRISTINE WAS EQUATING PORN TO PUBLIC SCHOOL!
Then at admit that you used a poor choice of words. Your statements could easily be taken as you accusing Christine of making porn and public school comparable, at the very least.
 
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