Hitler could have had eternal life

[Ben Masada]

Sorry Ben. There are two places a person goes. Neither is exclusive to any religion or culture. It's either heaven or the Lake of Fire. And it's eternal Ben.

Well, if you like to live under that fear of eternal hell-fire, go ahead and do it. I prefer the eternal sleeping of death when I am 120 bzrat HaShem.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Dan,
Why don't you enlighten us to what Peter taught. You seem to know a lot.

Sure. This excerpt from the Catechism is a good place to start:

Spoiler

The Church and non-Christians

839 Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.

When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, the first to hear the Word of God. The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ," "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."​

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.​

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.​

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.​

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world. According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.​

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.​

848 Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.​

Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

Why don't you read a little of medical science? You will find evidence
that with death there is no pain.

Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

No wonder Paul said that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) It must be sweet to walk in a world of illusions although in the dark. To walk by sight is to walk with understanding.

Nope. To walk by sight is to live as an animal, and not as a human being.


Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

The opposite is rather true. The difference between you and me is that I refuse to live in your world of illusions and you in my world of reality. Hence, what a sad existence you must lead. Sorry, I forgot to quote your slogan. Illusion must be sweet for those who live by faith.

I'm getting the impression that some of you're sarcasm has some truth in it. :idunno:


Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

are you saying he could do that
and
be saved without repenting?

It depend's a lot upon the following.

Show me where he was excommunicated. I did some internet searching and I found some rumor's but nothing from the Holy Catholic Church, and nothing from a newspaper of record, saying that the [Catholic] Nazi's were all summarily excommunicated --which would have included Hitler and Goebbel's --so I'd be eager to see what you can come up with. Is it true, that Hitler and the [Catholic] Nazi's were excommunicated by the Church?


Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

...God wants believers to know that they have eternal life....

I agree with that. Peter give's us some great counsel in how to go about knowing that, too.


Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag 1936


Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?

Stuart

I don't know. Why are you changing the subject?


Daniel

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[Stuu]

I don't know. Why are you changing the subject?


Daniel

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How was I changing the subject?

Stuart

 

[Dan Emanuel]

How was I changing the subject?

Stuart

I said "Hitler could have had eternal life," etc., and you asked, "Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?"

:idunno:

Are you trying to suggest that Hitler did nothing worthy of eternal torment? I understand you reject the notion, but for grin's, pretending that heaven and hell are real destination's, are you suggesting that Hitler did nothing deserving of hell?


Daniel

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[Stuu]

I said "Hitler could have had eternal life," etc., and you asked, "Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?"

:idunno:

Are you trying to suggest that Hitler did nothing worthy of eternal torment? I understand you reject the notion, but for grin's, pretending that heaven and hell are real destination's, are you suggesting that Hitler did nothing deserving of hell?


Daniel

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Firstly, I don't know where you stand on 'works', but surely 'Fighting for the Lord's work' is directly relevant to that.

Secondly, if the actions of Hitler do actually consist of 'Fighting for the Lord's work', as he claimed, and even if you aren't a 'works' person, then isn't that just as relevant to the acquisition of this fantasy existence, 'eternal life' (whatever the heck that means)? What if your god is fine with Hitler doing away with the Jews? It might be a neutral act as far as that god is concerned. How many Syrians did your god supposedly kill? How many Ethiopians? How many Hittites were ordered dead?

Stuart

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Firstly, I don't know where you stand on 'works', but surely 'Fighting for the Lord's work' is directly relevant to that...

Again, unless your suggesting that Hitler did nothing evil, nothing wrong, nothing sinful; then I do not understand you're tack here.

...Secondly, if the actions of Hitler do actually consist of 'Fighting for the Lord's work', as he claimed, and even if you aren't a 'works' person, then isn't that just as relevant to the acquisition of this fantasy existence, 'eternal life' (whatever the heck that means)?...

So that is what your suggesting then? Thats . . . interesting, but it is off-topic, since I'm presuming in the O.P. that we all agree that what Hitler did was not good, writ large.

...What if your god is fine with Hitler doing away with the Jews? It might be a neutral act as far as that god is concerned. How many Syrians did your god supposedly kill? How many Ethiopians? How many Hittites were ordered dead?

Stuart

:AMR:

What are you on about here?


Daniel

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[Dan Emanuel]

"...three fifths of all other Persons," are still found in the Constitution, Article 1, Section 2. Nothing can remove them. Section 2 of Amendment XIV is the correct thing to do in such case. You would need to amend the Constitution to grant the power to Congress to literally expunge those word's from the document's. Maybe that will happen 1 day, not in our lifetime probably. For now, we're stuck with it. Our sin, or the evidence of it. Its not going anywhere.

The sin here is both against American and Christian value's. American's believe in right's. Equality. Christian's believe in equality, and in the Word of God, which say's to not be racist. The Bible define's racism very precisely, and say's don't do it! Article 1, Section 2 of the United State's Constitution is direct evidence of American and Christian sinner's sinning. Repenting doesn't make the sin go away. Thats why some people make a big deal about repenting, or about not repenting. Our sin doesn't change, just because we repent, anymore than "three fifth's" change's, just because of the 14th Amendment. But something happen's to our sin when we believe in Jesus Christ [Matthew 18:3 KJV].


Daniel

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[Stuu]

So that is what your suggesting then? Thats . . . interesting, but it is off-topic, since I'm presuming in the O.P. that we all agree that what Hitler did was not good, writ large.

I'm sure we all agree that the Nazi regime perpetrated the greatest single atrocity against humanity in its genocide of the Jews and mass murder of so many others. But my questions remain: Would your god agree with us?, and What are the criteria for acceptance into eternity?

The point has already been made that the Catholics didn't excommunicate Hitler. So presumably they either think he died in a state of grace as they call it, or he was disqualified from the Heaven Club on some grounds that does not require excommunication.

My final point there, if it needs making obvious, is that given the Judeo-christian god's habit of killing humans (up to 25 million if you believe estimates based on the Jewish bible) is mass killing actually a barrier to entry to 'eternity', whatever that is.

Stuart

 

[Dan Emanuel]

I'm sure we all agree that the Nazi regime perpetrated the greatest single atrocity against humanity in its genocide of the Jews and mass murder of so many others. But my questions remain: Would your god agree with us?...

Sure. Top ten anyway.

...and What are the criteria for acceptance into eternity?...

Entrance to the eternal kingdom is granted by believing in Jesus Christ as a child does (Matthew 18:3 KJV).

...The point has already been made that the Catholics didn't excommunicate Hitler. So presumably they either think he died in a state of grace as they call it, or he was disqualified from the Heaven Club on some grounds that does not require excommunication...

Or their were sufficient ground's for formal excommunication and for whatever reason the Church did not do it. I'm not convinced that formal excommunication didn't happen, but I'm waiting to see if somebody can locate some reliable, authoritative source that it occurred. They're are also old Church law's floating around out their that indicate that certain choice's, when made by Catholic's --by there very commission --entail actual, automatic excommunication. So presumably Hitler and his fellow-Catholic Nazi's detonated 1 or two of these Trip Wire's.

...My final point there, if it needs making obvious, is that given the Judeo-christian god's habit of killing humans (up to 25 million if you believe estimates based on the Jewish bible) is mass killing actually a barrier to entry to 'eternity', whatever that is....

I can see that you'd like to argue theodicy/problem of evil.


Daniel

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[Stuu]

Or their were sufficient ground's for formal excommunication and for whatever reason the Church did not do it. I'm not convinced that formal excommunication didn't happen, but I'm waiting to see if somebody can locate some reliable, authoritative source that it occurred. They're are also old Church law's floating around out their that indicate that certain choice's, when made by Catholic's --by there very commission --entail actual, automatic excommunication. So presumably Hitler and his fellow-Catholic Nazi's detonated 1 or two of these Trip Wire's.

All I can find is a suggestion that all 'Nazi leaders' were excommunicated on mass in 1931. But that makes little sense because Goebbels was by that time a Nazi leader but was excommunicated in 1932 for marrying Magda. Why would they excommunicate him twice?

The Catholic and protestant churches opposed Hitler in the early 1930s but later found it convenient to support him in his opposition to communist Russia. There is also the underlying question of the Catholic charge of deicide against the Jews, which wasn't renounced until Vatican II in the 1960s. From that point of view, the killing of the Jews could well have been seen by some Catholics as the Lord's work.

You could be right about tripwires, but equally the grounds for excommunication seem to be very arbitrary. Are you excommunicated if you murder? What if you are a rape victim who has an abortion? That latter case is a prime possibility.

I can see that you'd like to argue theodicy/problem of evil.

As an atheist I'm always amused that the invention of the Judeo-christian god meant the invention of paradoxes like the problem of evil. Eliminate the god belief and you eliminate the problem!


Daniel

 

[Dan Emanuel]

All I can find is a suggestion that all 'Nazi leaders' were excommunicated on mass in 1931...

I think I found the same thing.

...But that makes little sense because Goebbels was by that time a Nazi leader but was excommunicated in 1932 for marrying Magda. Why would they excommunicate him twice?...

I don't know anything about this.

...The Catholic and protestant churches opposed Hitler in the early 1930s but later found it convenient to support him in his opposition to communist Russia...

Naturally, since the Nazi's weren't outright targeting the Church like the Communist's were.

...There is also the underlying question of the Catholic charge of deicide against the Jews, which wasn't renounced until Vatican II in the 1960s...

The Jewish people have been spoken of positively by the Church for almost 1 thousand year's by now. Vatican II provided more clarity on the matter, but they're is already sufficient clarity in M.O. in Church history.

...From that point of view, the killing of the Jews could well have been seen by some Catholics as the Lord's work...

Certainly not by good or informed Catholic's. This was a bit of a reach, Stuart.

...You could be right about tripwires, but equally the grounds for excommunication seem to be very arbitrary...

From what I remember about seeing them myself, the ground's didn't seem arbitrary to me. Murder was their, i.e.

...Are you excommunicated if you murder?...

I believe so.

...What if you are a rape victim who has an abortion? That latter case is a prime possibility...

I don't know that abortion is 1 of the excommunication Trip Wire's. It may be, but I'd guess not.

...As an atheist I'm always amused that the invention of the Judeo-christian god meant the invention of paradoxes like the problem of evil. Eliminate the god belief and you eliminate the problem!...

Are you suggesting that Hitler couldn't have happened in an atheists world?

Because Hitler happened in this 1. So the problem of evil is real.

...Daniel

Your not me.


Daniel

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