Last edited:
ECT History behing the 12 steps of AA ...
- Thread starter Faither
- Start date
PureX
Well-known member
There are good reasons why AA refers to "God" as a "higher power", and not as "Jesus", or "Allah", or "Elohim", or some other religiously specific designation. And the reason is that faith works to heal people REGARDLESS of the religion they attach it to, and even regardless of whether they attach it to any religious ideology at all.
Faith heals, and alcoholics need healing. So AA uses faith as an integral part of it's 12 step program. But it's using it to heal the alcoholic, NOT TO PROMOTE RELIGION.
Mostly, I just want to make that clear.
I have seen people thrown out of AA meetings because they insist on trying to promote their religious ideologies, there, and will not refrain from doing so when asked to stop. There are religious recovery groups for those who insist that their religion be the fundamental principal of their addiction recovery. But those groups have a far poorer success rate for addiction recovery than AA does, precisely because they turn away those people who will not accept their religious dogma along with their help.
Go to any speaker meeting of AA and you will hear an amazing real-life story of addiction and recovery. And I have no doubt that your own story is equally amazing. And equally inspirational. And I invite you to share it with us if you will.
All I wanted to point out is that not everyone perceives or uses the 12 steps as you do. And that's OK, because the goal is to help folks to get and stay sober. Not to bring them to religion. The Oxford Group tried religious (spiritual) recovery, and failed, because they ended up arguing over adherence to various "spiritual" dogmas and ideals, and losing sight of the goal of addiction recovery. AA has been very careful not to fall into that same trap.
Last edited:
PureX
Well-known member
I have been sober for 23 years. I got sober through AA and have spent many years as an active member of the program, including sponsoring others, manning phone banks, starting and running meetings, and the like. I am familiar with the 'big book' and what it says. And i am familiar with how recovery through the 12 steps works.
The only reason that phrase is written in past tense is because the writer is expressing how the members of AA, past and present, developed their program of recovery: though the trial and error of their perosional experience.
I have literally attended hundreds of AA meetings and do not recall the Preamble not being read at a single one of them, along with the opening paragraph of "How It Works".
I have stated several times that the 12 steps of AA were developed from the six steps of the Oxford Group, that were in turn borrowed from that religious conference in New York in 1908(?) (I tried to find info on that conference online, but was unsuccessful). So it stands to reason that this was one of the religious practices that was identified at that conference, and held onto throughout these several permutations of the steps.
Were kind of saying the same thing. We both acknowledge there has been changes. You are saying the changes are good, and I;m saying there should have never been changes made to the original steps.
Now, do you see the resemblance between the Greek word "pisteuo", and the third step of AA?
vines: "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." The Strongs: "Pisteuo means not just to believe, but to be persuaded, to trust, to place confidence in, signifies reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto," "commit to ones trust,"Be commited unto".
I skip step 9
Are you being funny, or serious?
Also, are you really homeless, or are you referring to the world in general?
PureX
Well-known member
:up: :up: :up: !!!
This is excellent news that should bring hope to anyone else that might be suffering from alcohol addiction. It is possible to be freed from it!
Addiction is a myth.
It is an erroneous description of what is actually going on within such an individual - a positive intent (relieving of some kind) having been allowed by said individual to have been attempted via the thought, action, and or substance, the repetition of which has rendered said intent through said thought, action, or substance to come to dominate.
This is why it it is referred to as "my fix" and or "my medicine."
The person has reached a point where they are now dependent upon this dynamic as their reality.
This is also why the seeming beast of a creature that arises out of one to defend its' existence against all comers; including the person now so committed to this above dynamic.
The reason for the struggle (beyond the physical changes that now exist within the individual) is that the original, positive intention - that still drives the compulsion - goes unmet during withdrawal from the above dynamic.
As a result, such an individual will often end up substituting some other means of maintaining the above dynamic - eating more, smoking more, and or some other means.
This is actually the drive compelling those who end up needing to force their new found supposed "freedom" on others, and why they are so intolerant not only of those who do not concur with their same "drink" but just as intolerant when that is pointed out to them.
All of it is nothing more than the bondage of death residing in all mankind, working death in each, that the Scripture talks about.
In the end, all is a cry for liberation from the bondage of the universal corruption that Romans 8 speaks of an answer to.
It is an erroneous description of what is actually going on within such an individual - a positive intent (relieving of some kind) having been allowed by said individual to have been attempted via the thought, action, and or substance, the repetition of which has rendered said intent through said thought, action, or substance to come to dominate.
This is why it it is referred to as "my fix" and or "my medicine."
The person has reached a point where they are now dependent upon this dynamic as their reality.
This is also why the seeming beast of a creature that arises out of one to defend its' existence against all comers; including the person now so committed to this above dynamic.
The reason for the struggle (beyond the physical changes that now exist within the individual) is that the original, positive intention - that still drives the compulsion - goes unmet during withdrawal from the above dynamic.
As a result, such an individual will often end up substituting some other means of maintaining the above dynamic - eating more, smoking more, and or some other means.
This is actually the drive compelling those who end up needing to force their new found supposed "freedom" on others, and why they are so intolerant not only of those who do not concur with their same "drink" but just as intolerant when that is pointed out to them.
All of it is nothing more than the bondage of death residing in all mankind, working death in each, that the Scripture talks about.
In the end, all is a cry for liberation from the bondage of the universal corruption that Romans 8 speaks of an answer to.
I've been sober for 15 minutes.
@Faither - The world in general and it never made sense to make amends, as it won't be believed. But I'm mostly being funny.
PureX
Well-known member
Making amends isn't about "being believed". It's about trying to repair the damage that we've done to others. It's what people do when they are sincere about their remorse, and sincere about wanting to live differently in the future.
Amends are simply an act, (the action of making the amends) based upon a belief,(that God will accept the life and will we offered to Him) sustained by confidence, (that the many decisions we make every day are inspired and filtered by the decision we made to turn our life and will over to God. THE COVENANT!
That's why most all people that work the steps don't experience the results shown in the big book.
They don't follow up their decision to turn their life and will over to God with the (PROOF) that they accually have done it in their hearts. In simpler terms, they made a decision to turn their life and will over to God, and then turned around and kept serving themselves, making their offering null and void.
A biblical parable and the sower.
PureX
Well-known member
The truth is 'what is', not 'what always has been'. Truth is dynamic and ever-changing; not fixed and static. I'm not saying we can't learn from the past, but we certainly shouldn't be idolizing it as your quote suggests.
The truth is always the same and never changes. It's growing towards the truth that should never be still or static.
In this day and age, the truth is like you said, what is now. I translate that as, the truth is whatever I say it is at this moment in time. Whatever suits me now.
This thread is about the similarity between the third step and the Greek word "pisteuo' used 248 times in the NT. Start another thread if you want to debate what AA is now compared to what it once was, i'll participate. But lets please stick to the topic at hand. I think this is the second time I've asked you that.
PureX
Well-known member
No, it's not. The true number and identity of humans on the Earth at this moment is constantly changing, as "this moment" is constantly changing. The truth of my age and condition as an individual human being is constantly changing, as time passes for me, and for you. The truth of my understanding of reality is also constantly changing as I am constantly learning more and more about reality through my ongoing experience of it. The truth is 'what is', and what is (existence), is always changing.
We humans cannot know the truth, en total, because we cannot experience the whole of 'what is'. So at any given time in our lives, the what we can know of the truth is relative to our time, place, and limited perceptual/conceptual abilities. So that all we can ever experience, then, is relative truthfulness. We cannot "know the truth", because the truth is holistic: it is the sum of all that is.
The third step of AA was written and intended for the purpose of helping people to recover from alcoholism. Nothing else. Yet for some odd reason you keep wanting to tie it to your own religious ideology. Which is fine for you, personally, but is not an acceptable assertion regarding the people who wrote the steps of AA and use them to recover from alcoholism. And it's wrong for you to misrepresent them, and their 3rd step, in the way that you seem to be intent on doing.
I don't disagree with the importance of surrendering to a higher power, or to God, as a means of regaining lost faith and self-control. I know that it works.
I also don't disagree that this concept of surrender to God is a fundamental element of Christian doctrine and practice. And that it is used within that context in a similar way: as a tool for overcoming and changing one's 'self'.
I simply object to your insisting on conflating the two as if they share the same overall agenda, when they do not. They may share that same overall agenda FOR YOU, personally, but they do not share the same agenda for a great many other people. And I'm not going to let you get away with implying otherwise.
Alcoholics Anonymous is NOT a religious organization and does NOT have a religious agenda. The people in A.A. who wrote the 12 steps did not do so to help anyone find or understand Jesus. or Christ, or religious Christianity. They simply held on to and used a spiritual practice that various religions (including Christianity) have used through the centuries to help overcome the obsession with self that often causes people to become mentally, emotionally, and spiritually ill. As is the case with people suffering from alcoholism.
If you continue to try and imply that AA is a gateway to your religious beliefs simply because the 3rd step worked that way for you, then I will continue to explain to you and to others that this is NOT the intent or purpose of AA, or of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. Because your implication misrepresents them. And that would be wrong.
The truth never changes. Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That is the only truth!
The third step is not religious and neither is pisteuo. I never said that. Your whipping yourself into a frenzy because you've been taught a different understanding of the steps. starting with changing the wording. I don't get into all these little so called "Theological" arguments you guys get into over who's this and who that. That means nothing! Pisteio is the only thing that matters to us, yesterday, today, and forever! It was relevant in the catacombs, in the oxford group, the first 100, and today. You and others think you can just change the words of anything you want, Gods Word the 12 steps, to make your own out comes. I'm here to tell you the difference, YOU make the choice!
AA "was" a program for people that had no other choice, "LAST RESORT".
That last last resort starts with turning your life and will over to God, What don't you get about that?
"But NOOO!" "God doesn't want my life"! "Please, I'll give anything but my life!" "ANYTHING"!
I was stepped by someone whos sponsor was in the first 100, The AA I know doesn't exist anymore! From that 75 years of sobriety they gave me, its my responsibility to carry the message. You probably don't do that any more either.
I've answered all your questions, when are going to answer my one question?
Is the third step and pisteuo defined as the same thing?
Last edited: