ECT History behing the 12 steps of AA ...

[Faither]

30 years ago, a person named Gino approached me at a CA meeting. Very small meeting , maybe 15 people. He was a 300 pound Sicilian that wore dark sunglass at night. I had just opened up in that meeting for the first time ever saying, please some one help me! If I go out that door without help, i'm going to die!

After that meeting everyone was outside smoking, and Gino who I had never seen before came up to me, and asked this question. "Do you wana get real?" I replied, what do you mean? He then stepped towards me getting within and inch of my face, and said "Do you want to live you #&@*?" He said it with such force, I think he accually spit on me!

I was a little stunned, didn't see that coming, he immediately got my attention! And seeing he was waiting for an answer, I kind of just said "yes". He then replied, "Lets go out and work the "steps". Being 30 years ago before everyone had heard of them, I said, What are the steps? I had never heard of them.

He then said, lets go get coffee at dennys, and I'll show you. So we went to dennys, along with 2 or 3 others he had bush wacked, and got a table.

He then started to explain what the steps were, where they came from, and how they are worked.

The first thing he told us was that his name was Gino, he had approximately 9 years of sobriety. He went on to say he had a he was one of the first hundred of alcoholics anonymous.
Just so you know I had barely one day of sobriety, and new I wouldn't make it to two.

So after he shared his credentials, which meant nothing to me at the time, he got out a book and showed us that there was 12 steps. He said these twelve steps came from a group of priests called the oxford group. He went on to say, that the oxford group had gotten these steps, "that were originally six steps" from the catacomb walls under Rome. He went on to say that these steps were a format for Exorcism. Being in the state I was in at the time , that didn't mean much either. I was willing to do anything.

I'm going to stop here for now and let that information settle in. I've tried to find a link between the steps and the Christians in the catacombs, but have never been able to find one. Gino was very reliable and stated all the information he will give to me has been passed down for generations through the many sponsers before him. I welcome any comments on this so far. Their is much more I will share with you about the steps later on.

 

[chrysostom]

-this is a good thing
-as long as it remains anonymous
-some here share way too much info about themselves

 

[PureX]

I've tried to find a link between the steps and the Christians in the catacombs, but have never been able to find one. Gino was very reliable and stated all the information he will give to me has been passed down for generations through the many sponsers before him. I welcome any comments on this so far. Their is much more I will share with you about the steps later on.

That's because you were misinformed.

The 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were developed through personal experience by the early members of AA. They were derived from the six steps of spiritual enlightenment developed by the Oxford Group, which was a group that was trying to use spiritual practices to solve people's problems; among them alcoholism.

However those original six steps did not come from the Catacombs of Rome. They were developed at an interfaith conference held in New York City around the turn of the 20th century. A number of representatives from various religious traditions had met, there, with the intention of identifying various faith practices that they held in common, and used to increase spiritual health and awareness. Practices such as repentance, confession, prayer and meditation, helping others, and so on.

The Oxford group then tried to use these steps to heal people, but in the end they fell to arguing amongst themselves because they did not have a singular focussed purpose. AA believes it succeeded where the Oxford group failed because of it's singleness of purpose: that is alcoholics helping each other to get and stay sober. (As opposed to achieving some sort of religious or spiritual enlightenment, or healing a host of other ailments.)

 

[Faither]

-this is a good thing
-as long as it remains anonymous
-some here share way too much info about themselves

Not a problem. I'll keep the focus on the steps. I have a point to make concerning them. But the information I'll be given about them has been lost for over25 years. That's why they get such negative comments, and they should as they are now.

 

[Faither]

That's because you were misinformed.

The 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were developed through personal experience by the early members of AA. They were derived from the six steps of spiritual enlightenment developed by the Oxford Group, which was a group that was trying to use spiritual practices to solve people's problems; among them alcoholism.

However those original six steps did not come from the Catacombs of Rome. They were developed at an interfaith conference held in New York City around the turn of the 20th century. A number of representatives from various religious traditions had met, there, with the intention of identifying various faith practices that they held in common, and used to increase spiritual health and awareness. Practices such as repentance, confession, prayer and meditation, helping others, and so on.

The Oxford group then tried to use these steps to heal people, but in the end they fell to arguing amongst themselves because they did not have a singular focussed purpose. AA believes it succeeded where the Oxford group failed because of it's singleness of purpose: that is alcoholics helping each other to get and stay sober. (As opposed to achieving some sort of religious or spiritual enlightenment, or healing a host of other ailments.)

As I said, I can't prove that there was six steps on the walls of the catacombs. And I'm not here to support the oxford group, or even the 12 steps the way they are used today.
But I do know what I experienced, and what happened. The information i'll be sharing is in an experience with these steps, and to the way they used to be worked. The 12 steps are no different than all the rest of the worlds theologies in todays world, there backwards.

And just as I can't prove the original 6 steps were taken from the early Christians from the catacomb walls, you can't disprove it either. So please let me get through this without constant displeasure. We are both in agreement however, the way the steps are being worked today, they can "probably"never bring anyone to Christ.

 

[john w]

After reading this "thread," it's Miller Time....

 

[Nick M]

Ignoring that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and focusing on morality.....The smartest thing Jimmy Swaggart said was "alcoholism is not a disease, it's a sin".

 

[Faither]

30 years ago, a person named Gino approached me at a CA meeting. Very small meeting , maybe 15 people. He was a 300 pound Sicilian that wore dark sunglass at night. I had just opened up in that meeting for the first time ever saying, please some one help me! If I go out that door without help, i'm going to die!

After that meeting everyone was outside smoking, and Gino who I had never seen before came up to me, and asked this question. "Do you wana get real?" I replied, what do you mean? He then stepped towards me getting within and inch of my face, and said "Do you want to live you #&@*?" He said it with such force, I think he accually spit on me!

I was a little stunned, didn't see that coming, he immediately got my attention! And seeing he was waiting for an answer, I kind of just said "yes". He then replied, "Lets go out and work the "steps". Being 30 years ago before everyone had heard of them, I said, What are the steps? I had never heard of them.

He then said, lets go get coffee at dennys, and I'll show you. So we went to dennys, along with 2 or 3 others he had bush wacked, and got a table.

He then started to explain what the steps were, where they came from, and how they are worked.

The first thing he told us was that his name was Gino, he had approximately 9 years of sobriety. He went on to say he had a he was one of the first hundred of alcoholics anonymous.
Just so you know I had barely one day of sobriety, and new I wouldn't make it to two.

So after he shared his credentials, which meant nothing to me at the time, he got out a book and showed us that there was 12 steps. He said these twelve steps came from a group of priests called the oxford group. He went on to say, that the oxford group had gotten these steps, "that were originally six steps" from the catacomb walls under Rome. He went on to say that these steps were a format for Exorcism. Being in the state I was in at the time , that didn't mean much either. I was willing to do anything.

I'm going to stop here for now and let that information settle in. I've tried to find a link between the steps and the Christians in the catacombs, but have never been able to find one. Gino was very reliable and stated all the information he will give to me has been passed down for generations through the many sponsers before him. I welcome any comments on this so far. Their is much more I will share with you about the steps later on.

Ok, so here we are, at a table in dennys. I'm in a state where I would do anything, not so much to be sober, but just to get rid of this insanity. The insanity of, "one" being to much. And a "thousand" not being enough. Gino, who I've never met in my life, has told me basically that he and his line of sponsors go back to the beginning of AA. That's about 57 years of sobriety he was going to unload on me. With my 30, that's about 90 years of sobriety I'm going to lay on you. I think I have the right to be heard about this, without interruption. Questions are always welcome, but I know you who can't wait to pounce need you time to. All I ask is wait until i'm done, and you can pounce till your hearts desire. Strangely, i'm not posting this for those who have addiction, although it can be beneficial. It's for those who struggle with what NT Faith is.

My point of sharing this with you will be apparent when I get there.

Gino, he's got his coffee, I'm practically brain dead from the last 10 years of rompin and stompin. So he gets out his AA big book and opens it up and shows me the steps. He goes onto to say that these 12 steps are a contract, a covenant with God. That we are going to write down each step, either accept or deny the step and move on. God is not mocked! This is a binding covenant! When were done were going to burn them as an act of cleaning, and an offering to God. Like I said I was willing to do anything. I went to my childhood priest, and he told me to go to AA, so I did.

So he gives me a pen and paper, and says write down the first step, so I do.

1) "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and drugs, and that our lives had become unmanageable."

I wrote it down, he asked me if that were true, were you powerless over alcohol and drugs? I was a little in shock that he even asked, isn't that kind of obvious? But I said yes! Then he asked, has your life become unmanageable? I shook my head and said if loosing your wife, child, family, home, job, qualifies as unmanageable, I'm there! He said ok, you've completed the first step, It's just about acknowledging your condition lets go on to the second step.


The second step reads," Came to believe, that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."

Then he asked the question, do you believe that a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity? I replied yes! I went to catholic school for 12 years, alter boy and everything. I didn't really feel like I was anything but screwed up at that time. But I've always been drawn to Jesus, ever since I was young. And by the way, I was 27 when this happened. 1986. anyway, I told him yes, I do believe there's a power greater than myself that can restore me to sanity. And that's all that is required he said, knowing anything about this power is not what were doing here. I said ok! He said lets go onto the third step.

The third Step: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him."

Gino said all the steps are important, but this one is "really " important. He said God is not mocked, and you'd be better off not to make this decision if you don't intend to at least try to keep it. He reminded me again, this is a covenant, a contract with God. Do you want to make the decision to turn your will and life over to God today? I was very willing to say yes, feeling just a flicker of hope off in the distance, maybe just because he was so confident in what he was saying and doing with me, and the other two people who were there. And i don't remember a thing about those other two guys.

So with me saying yes to the third step he showed me a prayer in the AA book, and told me to read it. It's called the third step prayer and it goes like this.

"God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do THY Will always!"

After I read the third step Prayer, Gino said ok, let me ask you some questions. I said ok.

1) Are you going to try and take power over drugs and alcohol?
I said, Yes most definitely I just need some tools and I know I can do it! He said abruptly, NO!! You have just willingly made a decision to turn your life and will over to God, "THATS NOT, ANY OF YOUR BISINESS ANYMORE', THATS GODS BISINESS NOW"!!! Gino went onto ask, Do you want to try and quit or take power over drugs and alcohol one more time before you make this covenant with God? God is not mocked! I said no, I've been trying to quit since the day I started. I can't do it, and I'm sick of trying!

He asked me a second question. Are you going to try and manage and control your life?
I replied YES! I'm gona get my wife and child back, my job, my family. He interrupted me in mid sentence with a loud NO!!! You just made a covenant, a contract with God to turn your life and will over to HIm. Managing and controlling your life isn't any of your business anymore! It's Gods business now! Then he asked me. DO YOU WANT TO TRY AND MANAGE AND CONTROL YOUR LIFE AGAIN!!!!! BEFORE, you make this covenant with God. Gino said to me, your the one who said in the first step your life had become unmanageable!
I thought for a second and said no, I can't manage and control my life and I don't have another run left in me to try again.

He kept going, drilling it into my head. He asked me, are you going to try and restore yourself to sanity? And believe it or not, I was stupid enough to say yes. He wasn't very happy about me not getting this concept of a contract or covenant with God and not thinking about the decision I had just made to turn my life and will over to God. And he asked me again. Do you want to try again and restore yourself to sanity before you make this covenant with God. I said no!

The process I went through that night took 5 hours. He didn't do it for money or anything else. But I would "never" be the same again! I'm going to let the first 3 steps sink in tonight. But let me ask you to think about what my point is going to be.
And that is that the word "pisteuo" the Greek verb for Faith, used over 250 times, mistranslated into English as the words believer, believing, and to believe.

Pisteuo is defined in the Vines dictionary as "A PERSONAL SURRENDER TO HIM, AND A LIFE INSPIRED BY THAT SURRENDER".

The third step reads: MADE A DESICION TO TURN OUR LIFE AND OUR WILL OVER TO THE CARE OF GOD".

Do you see any resemblance?

If theres anyone who would like the rest of the story, i'll need to hear from you.

 

[Danoh]

These issues and their mechanics have long fascinated me...

Tony Robbins has those 12 Steps beat with 6 steps that are self-supporting.

You could call it Behavioral Self-Change for the Lost...

The Believer's, on the other hand, is an ADDITIONAL victory - simply add one passage to the truth of Romans 5:1-2...

That's it - just one passage as both the needed leverage and the anchor.

Romans 6:7's "he that is dead is freed from sin."

 

[Faither]

These issues and their mechanics have long fascinated me...

Tony Robbins has those 12 Steps beat with 6 steps that are self-supporting.

You could call it Behavioral Self-Change for the Lost...

The Believer's, on the other hand, is an ADDITIONAL victory - simply add one passage to the truth of Romans 5:1-2...

That's it - just one passage as both the needed leverage and the anchor.

Romans 6:7's "he that is dead is freed from sin."

At the point I was, or anyone else would be working the steps, the word of God wouldn't be theirs yet.

Rom. 8:9 highlights the person that doesn't have the Spirit of Christ in them yet. No Spirit, no Christ, no Gods Word yet either.

Huge problems in the recovery world with people going into facilities being told to try Gods Word for recovery. The first problem is it's not theirs to claim anything out of it yet. The second problem is they don't know how to get the relationship with Christ started. Third problem, even if they did know how to access Jesus, it would be deemed as null and void because they are charging money for their service. Gods true programs,the ones that will connect us to Christ have to be free!

So your self leverage scenarios would be a new concept to me.

 

[PureX]

The 12 steps are no different than all the rest of the worlds theologies in todays world, there backwards.

The 12 steps are not "theology". They are a collection of intellectual/spiritual practices used by many different religions throughout history to help people heal mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.

And just as I can't prove the original 6 steps were taken from the early Christians from the catacomb walls, you can't disprove it either.

The history of the 12 steps and traditions of AA are documented in their texts: "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The 12 Steps and Traditions". In which they state that they originated from a religious/spiritual conference that took place in New York, with the specific intent of generating a collection of exactly such common spiritual practices. Why you seem to want to believe they that come from Roman Catacombs is beyond reason, and bespeaks a desire on your part to "mystify" their origins, unnecessarily.

So please let me get through this without constant displeasure.

Sorry for your displeasure, but I value honesty more then I value pleasure.

We are both in agreement however, the way the steps are being worked today, they can "probably"never bring anyone to Christ.

It is not the intent of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous to "bring anyone to Christ". A.A. has one purpose, and one purpose, only: to help alcoholics help each other to get and stay sober. If you want to "bring people to Jesus", start a church.

 

[PureX]

The process I went through that night took 5 hours. He didn't do it for money or anything else. But I would "never" be the same again! I'm going to let the first 3 steps sink in tonight. But let me ask you to think about what my point is going to be.
And that is that the word "pisteuo" the Greek verb for Faith, used over 250 times, mistranslated into English as the words believer, believing, and to believe.

Pisteuo is defined in the Vines dictionary as "A PERSONAL SURRENDER TO HIM, AND A LIFE INSPIRED BY THAT SURRENDER".

The third step reads: MADE A DESICION TO TURN OUR LIFE AND OUR WILL OVER TO THE CARE OF GOD".

Do you see any resemblance?

If theres anyone who would like the rest of the story, i'll need to hear from you.

There is a "resemblance" because the 12 steps were derived from the collective experience of a number of the world's religious traditions, including religious Christianity.

But the point of Alcoholics Anonymous is to help alcoholics get and stay sober. Including those who are not religious, or not Christian. You happened to be 12 stepped by a religious Christian, who spoke to you of the steps in a religious manner. And you responded to them accordingly because you are a religious Christian, too. And that's wonderful! Because it worked! And it's continuing to work! (I presume)

But not all alcoholics in need of help are religious Christians, and if we try to 12 step them in such a religious manner, we will fail to reach them in a way that they can accept. Also, a great many active alcoholics have been blaming their idea of God for all their problems (problems actually caused by their drinking) and so have a huge resentment against the whole idea of "God". And if we approach them to help them wearing God on our sleeve as your friend, did, we will only succeed in raising their anger and resentment against anything we might have to say to them.

One of the lessons AA learned from the failures of the Oxford Group was to set the religious proselytizing aside, and to focus exclusively on the problem of alcoholism. I have no problems with how the steps worked for you, as anything that helps an alcoholic get and stay sober is a good thing in my book. But you need to keep in mind that the way it worked for you is not the way it works for everyone else. And if you want to help an alcoholic get and stay sober, you'll need to be aware of this. Otherwise, you're only going to be able to help the religiously inclined. And that's only a small percentage of those who need help.

 

[Faither]

There is a "resemblance" because the 12 steps were derived from the collective experience of a number of the world's religious traditions, including religious Christianity.



But the point of Alcoholics Anonymous is to help alcoholics get and stay sober. Including those who are not religious, or not Christian. You happened to be 12 stepped by a religious Christian, who spoke to you of the steps in a religious manner. And you responded to them accordingly because you are a religious Christian, too. And that's wonderful! Because it worked! And it's continuing to work! (I presume)

But not all alcoholics in need of help are religious Christians, and if we try to 12 step them in such a religious manner, we will fail to reach them in a way that they can accept. Also, a great many active alcoholics have been blaming their idea of God for all their problems (problems actually caused by their drinking) and so have a huge resentment against the whole idea of "God". And if we approach them to help them wearing God on our sleeve as your friend, did, we will only succeed in raising their anger and resentment against anything we might have to say to them.

One of the lessons AA learned from the failures of the Oxford Group was to set the religious proselytizing aside, and to focus exclusively on the problem of alcoholism. I have no problems with how the steps worked for you, as anything that helps an alcoholic get and stay sober is a good thing in my book. But you need to keep in mind that the way it worked for you is not the way it works for everyone else. And if you want to help an alcoholic get and stay sober, you'll need to be aware of this. Otherwise, you're only going to be able to help the religiously inclined. And that's only a small percentage of those who need help.

Specific to AA. The real tragedy would be, that someone gets and stays sober and not experience what happens when we make a connection with God.

You are giving a perfect description in your post, to what AA or any 12 step program has been perverted into in these days . Lots of good intensions, but not a clue how to get a "conscious contact with God." Which is what the true 12 steps was supposed to produce.

The idea that AA or anyone for that matter can push God and His Word on someone for sobriety, who has never committed themselves truly, is the very perversion i'm talking about.

The true understanding of the steps is that you come to God powerless, humbled, and willing to surrender your life and will to Him. Having any understandings of God or not having any understands of God is not the true 12 step program, and is not a requirement. The 2nd step reads "came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." That doesn't mean your picking and choosing any spiritual path you desire. It means we acknowledge that their is a power greater than ourselves out there that can help us. No understanding of that power is necessary at that point. If we get to go further, I can show how God reveals himself to the one who is continually surrendering to Him.

So I agree with you in the sense that what you have described is the perverted 12 step programs of AA we have today. But that isn't what God intended for them to be.

If someone wants to get sober, restored to sanity, and doesn't want it through a conscious contact with God, I would simply tell them to find another program that teaches that, the true steps never did.

 

[Faither]

The 12 steps are not "theology". They are a collection of intellectual/spiritual practices used by many different religions throughout history to help people heal mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
The history of the 12 steps and traditions of AA are documented in their texts: "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The 12 Steps and Traditions". In which they state that they originated from a religious/spiritual conference that took place in New York, with the specific intent of generating a collection of exactly such common spiritual practices. Why you seem to want to believe they that come from Roman Catacombs is beyond reason, and bespeaks a desire on your part to "mystify" their origins, unnecessarily.
Sorry for your displeasure, but I value honesty more then I value pleasure.
It is not the intent of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous to "bring anyone to Christ". A.A. has one purpose, and one purpose, only: to help alcoholics help each other to get and stay sober. If you want to "bring people to Jesus", start a church.

Really, LOL. You obviously have no clue with what the AA book is trying to achieve.

It's not a problem, your understanding is simply what the 12 steps have been perverted into, and I agree.

But you should really read the book if you express an opinion on it.

The point i'm making is the steps as a whole and the 3rd step precisely is the same action as NT Pisteuo action is used over 250 times, mistranslated as believer, believing, and to believe.

If you want, start a thread on what the true purpose of AA is, ill participate. But that's not the topic here. "I'm comparing the act of NT pisteuo, to the act of the third step of AA." Not trying to help anyone get sober here. So can you comment on that topic?

 

[Faither]

There is a "resemblance" because the 12 steps were derived from the collective experience of a number of the world's religious traditions, including religious Christianity.

But the point of Alcoholics Anonymous is to help alcoholics get and stay sober. Including those who are not religious, or not Christian. You happened to be 12 stepped by a religious Christian, who spoke to you of the steps in a religious manner. And you responded to them accordingly because you are a religious Christian, too. And that's wonderful! Because it worked! And it's continuing to work! (I presume)

But not all alcoholics in need of help are religious Christians, and if we try to 12 step them in such a religious manner, we will fail to reach them in a way that they can accept. Also, a great many active alcoholics have been blaming their idea of God for all their problems (problems actually caused by their drinking) and so have a huge resentment against the whole idea of "God". And if we approach them to help them wearing God on our sleeve as your friend, did, we will only succeed in raising their anger and resentment against anything we might have to say to them.

One of the lessons AA learned from the failures of the Oxford Group was to set the religious proselytizing aside, and to focus exclusively on the problem of alcoholism. I have no problems with how the steps worked for you, as anything that helps an alcoholic get and stay sober is a good thing in my book. But you need to keep in mind that the way it worked for you is not the way it works for everyone else. And if you want to help an alcoholic get and stay sober, you'll need to be aware of this. Otherwise, you're only going to be able to help the religiously inclined. And that's only a small percentage of those who need help.

Purex, I missed something you said that does apply to this topic. You said, "that there's a resemblance" between the third step and NT pisteuo? Am I to understand you accept the true meaning of "pisteuo"?

 

[patrick jane]

30 years ago, a person named Gino approached me at a CA meeting. Very small meeting , maybe 15 people. He was a 300 pound Sicilian that wore dark sunglass at night. I had just opened up in that meeting for the first time ever saying, please some one help me! If I go out that door without help, i'm going to die!

After that meeting everyone was outside smoking, and Gino who I had never seen before came up to me, and asked this question. "Do you wana get real?" I replied, what do you mean? He then stepped towards me getting within and inch of my face, and said "Do you want to live you #&@*?" He said it with such force, I think he accually spit on me!

I was a little stunned, didn't see that coming, he immediately got my attention! And seeing he was waiting for an answer, I kind of just said "yes". He then replied, "Lets go out and work the "steps". Being 30 years ago before everyone had heard of them, I said, What are the steps? I had never heard of them.

He then said, lets go get coffee at dennys, and I'll show you. So we went to dennys, along with 2 or 3 others he had bush wacked, and got a table.

He then started to explain what the steps were, where they came from, and how they are worked.

The first thing he told us was that his name was Gino, he had approximately 9 years of sobriety. He went on to say he had a he was one of the first hundred of alcoholics anonymous.
Just so you know I had barely one day of sobriety, and new I wouldn't make it to two.

So after he shared his credentials, which meant nothing to me at the time, he got out a book and showed us that there was 12 steps. He said these twelve steps came from a group of priests called the oxford group. He went on to say, that the oxford group had gotten these steps, "that were originally six steps" from the catacomb walls under Rome. He went on to say that these steps were a format for Exorcism. Being in the state I was in at the time , that didn't mean much either. I was willing to do anything.

I'm going to stop here for now and let that information settle in. I've tried to find a link between the steps and the Christians in the catacombs, but have never been able to find one. Gino was very reliable and stated all the information he will give to me has been passed down for generations through the many sponsers before him. I welcome any comments on this so far. Their is much more I will share with you about the steps later on.

Who cares where they came from if they work. The 12 Steps have saved countless lives, do you know when they were founded ?

 

[Faither]

Who cares where they came from if they work. The 12 Steps have saved countless lives, do you know when they were founded ?

Like i said, it's a tragedy that countless lives would be saved, and not receive what the 12 steps are all about, "A conscious contact with God." AA never intended to save lives, but to surrender them to God."

Hey! do you think there's a connection to what the steps call "a conscious contact with God, and the mind of Christ?"

Any light bulbs going off?

 

[PureX]

Like i said, it's a tragedy that countless lives would be saved, and not receive what the 12 steps are all about, "A conscious contact with God." AA never intended to save lives, but to surrender them to God."

I am sorry, but the is simply untrue.

Here is the A.A. Preamble read at the start of EVERY MEETING of Alcoholics Anonymous everywhere in the world:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self- supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

Hey! do you think there's a connection to what the steps call "a conscious contact with God, and the mind of Christ?"

Any light bulbs going off?

A.A. deliberately refers to "a God of our understanding" so as to avoid any form of religious proselytizing.

From the 12 Traditions of A.A.:

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy."

You can see from these traditions that A.A is intent on remaining autonomous, and apart from religion or politics, and free from religious proselytizing or political grandstanding. As doing so is essential to their primary purpose. Which is NOT TO BRING PEOPLE TO CHRIST, but to help the alcoholic get and stay sober.

A.A. does not oppose religion, nor Christ, nor religious Christianity. It simply leaves one's idea of "God" up to the individual alcoholic.

 

[Faither]

I am sorry, but the is simply untrue.

Here is the A.A. Preamble read at the start of EVERY MEETING of Alcoholics Anonymous everywhere in the world:

​

A.A. deliberately refers to "a God of our understanding" so as to avoid any form of religious proselytizing.

From the 12 Traditions of A.A.:

​

You can see from these traditions that A.A is intent on remaining autonomous, and apart from religion or politics, and free from religious proselytizing or political grandstanding. As doing so is essential to their primary purpose. Which is NOT TO BRING PEOPLE TO CHRIST, but to help the alcoholic get and stay sober.

A.A. does not oppose religion, nor Christ, nor religious Christianity. It simply leaves one's idea of "God" up to the individual alcoholic.

Traditions make void the Word of God.

You need to google chapter 5,called how it works. Don't even talk to me again unless you read that.

Oh, and "there is no such phrase and a God of my understanding. There is a phrase that says God as we understood Him. Meaning a past tense! remember, we turned our life and will over to the care of God! Not our life anymore, as we "understood Him." PAST TENSE!

And it's chapter 5 that's read before each meeting. The preamble not so much.

Thanks for proving my point about it being perverted. but what about the third step and Pisteuo, do you accept the true meaning of pisteuo?

 

[Faither]

Purex,
the bigger point is AA doesn't push any kind of religion or theology. It simply puts everything on the surrendering of our life and will to God. That is what Faithing or pisteuo is in the NT. And this only starts the process. I think were on the same page when we say AA doesn't teach a philosophy of any kind. but it is a completely Spiritual program. And if someone surrenders their life to God, genuinely! Jesus will reveal himself to that person. But like I said, this first time through the steps only gets the ball rolling. I haven't heard from anyone who wants me to tell the rest of how and what happens. And I won't continue until someone does.