OK, I thought you were referring to salvation. Yes, throughout human history there have been several resurrections back to mortal life.
Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go
- Thread starter cgaviria
- Start date
OK, I thought you were referring to salvation. Yes, throughout human history there have been several resurrections back to mortal life.
This is a false teaching, for even Jesus Christ was in Sheol for the 3 days and 3 nights, which is also where all the dead go.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, what John saw here was set in heaven:
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (Rev.4:2-4).
Jesus Christ was in Sheol for 3 days and 3 nights, hence,
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40 [NIV])
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. (Psalm 16:10 [ESV])
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Our Lord's "decent into Hell" was not a literal journey to Hell
Our Lord's "decent into Hell" was not a literal journey to Hell
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity
Deniers of the Trinity are always confused on matters of the faith. How can they not be so, for after all, they are not Christians.
The "descent into Hell" is symbolic, pointing to Christ's suffering at Gethsemane and the cross.
From the Heidelberg Catechism:
Question 44. Why is there added, "he descended into hell"?
Answer. That in my greatest temptations, I may be assured, and wholly comfort myself in this, that my Lord Jesus Christ, by his inexpressible anguish, pains, terrors, and hellish agonies, in which he was plunged during all his sufferings, but especially on the cross, hath delivered me from the anguish and torments of hell.
The grave was a punishment for Our Lord; it is not a punishment for believers. In going to the grave He took control of the keys of the grave (of hell and of death), that He might make it a door of deliverance for His people out of this world and a door of entrance into glory. So the nature of the grave has been changed for believers by Christ.
There is a soul-body unity, such that it is impossible to speak of the effects of death touching the body without also reaching the soul. A soul under the power of death is one in which it is stripped of its material body. Hence the souls of the redeemed are presented as crying out, How long? They have immediately passed into glory, but they are not complete without their bodily element. Therefore, to say that our Lord's soul was in paradise without His body is to declare that His soul likewise suffered the effects of death until the third day. The key point here is to avoid any insinuation that the Lord was consciously present in any place other than paradise.
The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. The soul was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with the body, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.
If Christ had accomplished nothing for believers, it could be said that believers descend into hell in the same sense Christ did. As it stands, though, Christ worked vicariously for believers in His descent into hell. So it would be an improper extension of the clause "descended into Hell" to say that believers descend into hell. The bodies of the saved are united to Christ in the grave—see 1 Cor. 6:12-20, it is spiritual and mystical, yet real and inseparable—and therefore rest as in a bed. The nature of the grave has been transformed. The bodies of the wicked are kept in their grave as in a prison.
Further, it is asked: Can we safely say that during the three days when Jesus died, Jesus went to sheol?
Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.' "
Some folks try to make "Paradise" into something other than heaven and the blessed presence of God. No, it's heaven. Jesus is not saying Paradise equals the grave or some spiritual element to it.
Eph. 4:9 "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
This should not be taken to mean that Christ actually went down to hell in death either to suffer more (the cross itself is the place of spiritual abandonment, the terror of hell), or even to tip over Satan on his throne and bust out various prisoners. It is enough (and Scriptural) to recognize that this is a reference to the Incarnation through the womb of Mary (see Psalm 139:15) or simply to the basic grave that encloses our Lord (Psalm 63:9). That place is "all the way down" as far as the Incarnation of Our Lord’s Adamic (non-glorified) flesh goes—Our Lord completely identifies with us even unto death. The point of the passage is that the same Lord who came down from heaven returns victorious above.
1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison," does not refer (though some have wrongly interpreted it so) to Christ preaching after his death to entities in hell. But to Christ "in the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) who long before the present day and pending judgment went and preached in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20), in whom was the same Holy Spirit, to sinners—most of whom ignored his message of judgment. And they are now in prison a long time, and will never get out of there. But not because they had no warning; and so neither will sinners today who do not heed similar, even more urgent warnings.
AMR
Our Lord's "decent into Hell" was not a literal journey to Hell
Please cast your vote in the Poll:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity
Deniers of the Trinity are always confused on matters of the faith. How can they not be so, for after all, they are not Christians.
The "descent into Hell" is symbolic, pointing to Christ's suffering at Gethsemane and the cross.
From the Heidelberg Catechism:
Question 44. Why is there added, "he descended into hell"?
Answer. That in my greatest temptations, I may be assured, and wholly comfort myself in this, that my Lord Jesus Christ, by his inexpressible anguish, pains, terrors, and hellish agonies, in which he was plunged during all his sufferings, but especially on the cross, hath delivered me from the anguish and torments of hell.
The grave was a punishment for Our Lord; it is not a punishment for believers. In going to the grave He took control of the keys of the grave (of hell and of death), that He might make it a door of deliverance for His people out of this world and a door of entrance into glory. So the nature of the grave has been changed for believers by Christ.
There is a soul-body unity, such that it is impossible to speak of the effects of death touching the body without also reaching the soul. A soul under the power of death is one in which it is stripped of its material body. Hence the souls of the redeemed are presented as crying out, How long? They have immediately passed into glory, but they are not complete without their bodily element. Therefore, to say that our Lord's soul was in paradise without His body is to declare that His soul likewise suffered the effects of death until the third day. The key point here is to avoid any insinuation that the Lord was consciously present in any place other than paradise.
The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. The soul was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with the body, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.
If Christ had accomplished nothing for believers, it could be said that believers descend into hell in the same sense Christ did. As it stands, though, Christ worked vicariously for believers in His descent into hell. So it would be an improper extension of the clause "descended into Hell" to say that believers descend into hell. The bodies of the saved are united to Christ in the grave—see 1 Cor. 6:12-20, it is spiritual and mystical, yet real and inseparable—and therefore rest as in a bed. The nature of the grave has been transformed. The bodies of the wicked are kept in their grave as in a prison.
Further, it is asked: Can we safely say that during the three days when Jesus died, Jesus went to sheol?
Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.' "
Some folks try to make "Paradise" into something other than heaven and the blessed presence of God. No, it's heaven. Jesus is not saying Paradise equals the grave or some spiritual element to it.
Eph. 4:9 "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
This should not be taken to mean that Christ actually went down to hell in death either to suffer more (the cross itself is the place of spiritual abandonment, the terror of hell), or even to tip over Satan on his throne and bust out various prisoners. It is enough (and Scriptural) to recognize that this is a reference to the Incarnation through the womb of Mary (see Psalm 139:15) or simply to the basic grave that encloses our Lord (Psalm 63:9). That place is "all the way down" as far as the Incarnation of Our Lord’s Adamic (non-glorified) flesh goes—Our Lord completely identifies with us even unto death. The point of the passage is that the same Lord who came down from heaven returns victorious above.
1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison," does not refer (though some have wrongly interpreted it so) to Christ preaching after his death to entities in hell. But to Christ "in the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) who long before the present day and pending judgment went and preached in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20), in whom was the same Holy Spirit, to sinners—most of whom ignored his message of judgment. And they are now in prison a long time, and will never get out of there. But not because they had no warning; and so neither will sinners today who do not heed similar, even more urgent warnings.
AMR
You don't seem to know how you sound when you claim this kind of stuff with all your education.
I really don't mind Christians have difference of understanding of the Bible, but just because they don't agree with your doctrines, you judge them as not Christians.
Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Your fruit is nothing but elitism and militant and slanderous to say the least.
You don't even know you are following Pharisees' way, not Jesus' way. Shame on you.
Trinitarians have killed many of their enemy, starting with RCC. And your enemy non-trins did not kill anyone. Above all Jesus and His disciples did not kill anyone either.
Think about it "teacher".
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Denial of the Trinity Places One Outside the Christian Camp
Denial of the Trinity Places One Outside the Christian Camp
1. the Father is God,
2. the Son is God,
3. the Holy Spirit is God,
4. the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit,
5. the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit,
6. the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, and
7. they are not three gods, but one God.
Accordingly, calling upon some "Lord," other than He who is described (and named accordingly) in Scripture—that is, God the Son—is but to call upon an idol of one's own making. No one truly regenerated by God the Holy Spirit, can deny the triune God. Now they may not understand the matter in all its complexities, but God the Spirit indwells the regenerated, and God the Spirit cannot deny God the Son, else the regenerated house of the believer is divided, contrary to the direct teachings of God the Son (Mark 3:35).
There is nothing elitist about declaring deniers of the Trinity to be outside the Christian camp. Rather, it is exclusivism to do so, for only Christianity makes exclusive claims about exactly who can be saved and who cannot. Christianity is not an inclusive movement, where all roads lead to eternal bliss. Our Lord clearly states that He is the way, the only way. He is the way because Jesus Christ is God, and only God could take upon Himself the sins of all others, suffer the full weight of eternal punishment for them, and propitiate the wrath of God the Father towards mankind's sins.
AMR
Denial of the Trinity Places One Outside the Christian Camp
All that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. The name of the Lord is vital here. It is not simply a noun devoid of much weight in meaning. The Lord described in Scripture is a particular Person within the Godhead, which includes the Persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. One What (essence), Three Whos (subsistences/Persons), all co-equal, co-eternal,and co-inhering the one divine essence. Of the Triune Godhead, if we say anything at all, we must say:
1. the Father is God,
2. the Son is God,
3. the Holy Spirit is God,
4. the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit,
5. the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit,
6. the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, and
7. they are not three gods, but one God.
Accordingly, calling upon some "Lord," other than He who is described (and named accordingly) in Scripture—that is, God the Son—is but to call upon an idol of one's own making. No one truly regenerated by God the Holy Spirit, can deny the triune God. Now they may not understand the matter in all its complexities, but God the Spirit indwells the regenerated, and God the Spirit cannot deny God the Son, else the regenerated house of the believer is divided, contrary to the direct teachings of God the Son (Mark 3:35).
There is nothing elitist about declaring deniers of the Trinity to be outside the Christian camp. Rather, it is exclusivism to do so, for only Christianity makes exclusive claims about exactly who can be saved and who cannot. Christianity is not an inclusive movement, where all roads lead to eternal bliss. Our Lord clearly states that He is the way, the only way. He is the way because Jesus Christ is God, and only God could take upon Himself the sins of all others, suffer the full weight of eternal punishment for them, and propitiate the wrath of God the Father towards mankind's sins.
If that which we hold dear is but a singular function of counting noses we would all be Muslims, or even Romanists. Genetic fallacies are often the tools of the desperate.
Think about it when you are actually being taught. My response is but for those who have ears to hear. You are a tool made possible by the hard providence of God (1 Cor. 11:19). Your unrepentant anti-Trinitarianism merely affords me (and others) a means to provide a proper response for the discerning. :AMR:
AMR
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What does that have to do about "heaven" in this passage?:
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (Rev.4:2-4).
Are you trying to prove that "heaven" in this passage is actually "Sheol"? I cannot even imagine why you would even say anything about Sheol while addressing Revelation 4:2-4!
Very good point. We all know that a son is conceived by his father and the holy Spirit fathered Jesus.
Also, since God is holy by definition, why the superfluous adjective "holy"?
The Spirit is the Spirit, right?
Yes it is. By arguing about the doctrine makes you elite and superior.
You are so worldly because you are puffed up..
You see, you guys don't honor Jesus' word much. Most of your doctrines are built up without Jesus' word.
You disregard the fact the trinity churches killed non-trins. You guys are just like Pharisee and that is your fruit.
Your anti-Christ spirit is showing in your murdering and persecuting non-trins.
so sad.
That is a false statement which I have highlighted in red; unless of course you also, like the MADists, say that "Jesus is YHWH", because calling on the Name of the LORD is clearly a quote taken from the Prophet Joel and that Name is not the Son, as you have incorrectly stated, but that Name is the Father who is YHWH throughout the Torah and all Tanakh.
Acts 2:16-21 TS2009 W/Footnotes
16 “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Yo’ĕl:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days, says Elohim, that I shall pour out of My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,
18 and also on My male servants and on My female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy.
19 ‘And I shall show wonders in the heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapour of smoke.
20 ‘The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of יהוה.
21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.’b Joe 2:28-32 Footnote: bRom 10:13.
Joel 2:28-32 TS2009 W/Footnotes
28 “And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions.
29 “And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,
31 the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.
32 “And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered.b For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapec as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls. Footnotes: bAct 2:21, Rom 10:13. cIsa 4:2-3, Obad 1:17, Rev 14:1.
Romans 10:13 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 For “everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.”c Joe 2:32. Footnote: cAct 2:21.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
And in patience they possessed their souls.
Yep, for if one does not have the patience and faith of the saints, and goes ahead and proclaims himself already to have obtained sonship, the same has lusted, and proclaimed himself to have obtained while the quail was yet between the teeth, but before the shlav of Shiloh was cut off in Covenant; and they will awaken one day only to find their lusting carcasses buried in Kibroth haTaavah. :chuckle:
That Jesus Christ went to Sheol because that is where the dead go, not heaven.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Things have changed since OT times. Now when a person dies physically he is then with the lord Jesus in heaven:
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil.1:23).
That is why we see men in heaven after their death:
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (Rev.4:2-4).
Not even Christ went to Heaven immediately that He died.
The saints are in their graves, if they have died before Jesus returns.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Even after their resurrection, the saints will not go to Heaven--
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Christ returns, gathers His saints, and they are in the air.
No going into the Heaven, yet.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
LA
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This verse is not talking about anyone rising from their graves but instead about them being resurrected. What is found in "bold" in every case is referring to believers who are physically dead:
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:14-17).
First we can see that when the Lord descends from heaven those believers who are physically dead will be with Him. That means that they are in heaven. Then we read that those who are physically dead will rise. The Greek word anistēmi is translated "rise" and it means "of resurrection of the dead...of believers...1 Th 4:16" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
I see no definition of the word anistēmi which matches the meaning you want to place upon it.
Can you get anything right?
The word is telling the living believers that Jesus will bring with Him those loved ones who have died.
This is a telling of Christ returning with 10 thousands of saints AFTER they have been resurrected and gathered to Him in the clouds.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
There is no such thing as peoples spirits being alive in Heaven when they are dead.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The context of that verse is that we will be present with the Lord after one has been clothed with our house from Heaven, or else we would be naked.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
LA
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is what I said. When the Lord descends from heaven those believers who are physically dead will be with Him. That means that they are in heaven. Then we read that those who are physically dead will rise. The Greek word anistēmi is translated "rise" and it means "of resurrection of the dead...of believers...1 Th 4:16" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
I see no definition of the word anistēmi which matches the meaning you want to place upon it.
Please quote a Greek expert who says that the Greek word anistēmi can mean what you say it means.