Those of the nations that survive the tribulation and are not condemned at Christ's coming.
ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Those of the nations that survive the tribulation and are not condemned at Christ's coming.
Interplanner
Well-known member
No realistic reading of 'the trib' as a future event will yield this understanding. I did the math (the fractions and percents) of the destruction once, got to ch 11 and I was at -275%. That means everyone and everything had been destroyed about 3x. Time to stop.
The Rev was written to help 1st century Jewish Christians realize they would be the victors in Christ one day after the dust and smoke of the DofJ had settled. It's first page says it is about things immediately at hand. It is not a prediction about the world in 2010.
When did this happen?:
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
From comments on Post number 55:
ἄνωθεν, or anothen in John 3: 7.
"Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old,again, anew."
Tyndale has "Marvel not that I said to thee, ye must be born anew."
"Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above." John 3: 7, Young's Literal Translation
Born anew and especially born from above are better translations that born again.
John 3: 7 - γεννηθηναι ανωθεν
- points to a major transformation, which can be seen also in Romans 12: 2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Transformed is from μεταμορφουσθε, metamorphousthe, or to undergo a metamorphosis, that is, a big change.
ἄνωθεν, or anothen in John 3: 7.
"Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again
Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old,again, anew."
Tyndale has "Marvel not that I said to thee, ye must be born anew."
"Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above." John 3: 7, Young's Literal Translation
Born anew and especially born from above are better translations that born again.
John 3: 7 - γεννηθηναι ανωθεν
- points to a major transformation, which can be seen also in Romans 12: 2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Transformed is from μεταμορφουσθε, metamorphousthe, or to undergo a metamorphosis, that is, a big change.
The unrighteous Jews thought the same thing as you.
and reacted to the hearing of the truth in the same way as you.
You need to be renewed in the spirit of your mind and see that the saints will inherit the earth, not narrow strips of land in the middle east.
The blood of millions of people are on the hands of believers who think carnally like Jerry.
Yes, God hid the truth about Christ in the lives of many of the OT saints.
LA
Rondonmonson
New member
Unfortunately what happens, as per usual, people twist scriptures like "They are not all Israel which are of Israel" and "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called" or "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" and get to the replacement theology position.
All Israel will be saved doesn't mean every Jew will be saved, just like when Israel was accursed it didn't mean all Jews were backslidden, see Daniel etc. Israel was punished as a nation and will be saved as a nation, when Israel as a nation accepts the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) and especially Malachi 4:5-6 which says Elijah will be sent to turn Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord. So Israel accepts Jesus Christ as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord so this tells me they are worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God when the Abomination of Desolation happens. Daniel doesn't say the "Daily Sacrifice" he says the Daily will be taken away, the word Sacrifice was added by the translators. I think it is a Daily oblation to Christ or a tribute/honoring of the Messiah. ANYWAY.........
All Israel will be saved only means Israel as a Nation turns back to God. It doesn't mean all Jews get Saved. The Church and Israel are two different entities.
"The Church and Israel are two different entities. "
What is the meaning of the Greek word that church is translated from?
Why is church in the King James Version not capitalized and Israel is always in caps?
I know this is a matter of grammar, but the reason church is not capitalized tells us about what church is in relation to Israel.
Israel is unique and church is not, if the English word church is given the same meaning as the Greek word it is translated from.
That Israel in the New Testament must always be Old Covenant Israel is an assumption of dispensationalism, not of scripture. though in most New Testament uses Israel does refer to Old Covenant Israel, but some scripture points to an Israel which is of the New Covenant, such as Romans 9: 8 and Galatians 6: 16.
In the discussion of the Old and New Covenants in Hebrews Chapters Eight through ten, Christ established the New Covenant. The writer argues for the New Covenant being a better covenant than the Old Covenant, and that the Old Covenant was taken away so the New Covenant could be established (Hebrews 10:9). The implication is that the New Covenant was established with Israel (Hebrews 8: 8-9). The prophecy of this was made in Jeremiah 31: 27, and fulfilled in the New Covenant, not a future fulfillment as dispensationalism says. Also, in II Corinthians 3: 7 and 3: 11 the Old Covenant is said to be done away, while the New Covenant in 3: 8 called the ministration of the spirit is said to be glorious and again glorious in 3: 11. In II Corinthians 3: 4-11 no mention is made of Israel or of the Church.
What is the meaning of the Greek word that church is translated from?
Why is church in the King James Version not capitalized and Israel is always in caps?
I know this is a matter of grammar, but the reason church is not capitalized tells us about what church is in relation to Israel.
Israel is unique and church is not, if the English word church is given the same meaning as the Greek word it is translated from.
That Israel in the New Testament must always be Old Covenant Israel is an assumption of dispensationalism, not of scripture. though in most New Testament uses Israel does refer to Old Covenant Israel, but some scripture points to an Israel which is of the New Covenant, such as Romans 9: 8 and Galatians 6: 16.
In the discussion of the Old and New Covenants in Hebrews Chapters Eight through ten, Christ established the New Covenant. The writer argues for the New Covenant being a better covenant than the Old Covenant, and that the Old Covenant was taken away so the New Covenant could be established (Hebrews 10:9). The implication is that the New Covenant was established with Israel (Hebrews 8: 8-9). The prophecy of this was made in Jeremiah 31: 27, and fulfilled in the New Covenant, not a future fulfillment as dispensationalism says. Also, in II Corinthians 3: 7 and 3: 11 the Old Covenant is said to be done away, while the New Covenant in 3: 8 called the ministration of the spirit is said to be glorious and again glorious in 3: 11. In II Corinthians 3: 4-11 no mention is made of Israel or of the Church.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then what do you make of what is in "bold" in the following passage?:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you going to now argue that David was Christ?
themuzicman
Well-known member
You're ignoring the context, here. The covenant Paul is speaking about is the New Covenant, which has already happened, and Paul has said repeatedly that the remnant is the Israel that will be saved. "All Israel", here, is the "children of the promise" in 9:6-8, and the remnant in 11:1-7.
Hi and you are saying that the NEW COVENANT has happened already ??
I do not yet see Christ's coming ,nor have seen 12 apostles sitting on 12 thrones < have you ??
There are 4 verbs in Rom 11:26 and they are in the Greek FUTURE TENSE so it has yet to happen !!
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, the New Covenant will not be in force until all those of the house of Israel and all those of the house of Judah have their sins forgiven:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
That event remains in the future.
Rondonmonson
New member
You can be known by the Least and Greatest and not be the God of ALL the Least and ALL the Greatest men. God can not let men in to Heaven who do not wash themselves in the Blood of Jesus Christ, God could not even stay with Jesus on the Cross because our sins were upon him. That is why Jesus said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken/left me ?" God can not be where sin is, His glory would consume sin and sinners.
All Israel being saved, only means Israel as a Nation turns back unto God. Israel as a nation has not served God in the last 2500 years, or since Daniels 70 Week Decree. Israel as a nation finally understands that Jesus Christ is their Messiah.
Interplanner
Well-known member
God is not doing anything with nations anymore; Rom 11:30. Everything is done through Christ and what the individual believes about him. The 'Israel' that Paul is talking about was qualified back in 9:6, 24, etc. Saved never meant a Judaistic theocracy. It means justfication from sins in and through Christ.
Rondonmonson
New member
In way they are correct....But in the end, everyone misses the point.
The "New Covenant" can only be new to Israel, the Covenant with the Gentiles was always the Blood of Jesus. The supposed New Covenant has not came to Israel, though it has, they just mostly haven't received it, but when the words says behold, I will write my laws upon your hearts etc. etc, it is speaking FUTURE TENSE. BUT, the fact is, the ORIGINAL Covenant was not the Laws given to Moses, the original covenant was the Promise to Abraham of a SEED (Jesus) that would take away all sins. (The Law came 430 years after the Promise) So in essence, it isn't really a New Covenant, it is just the original covenant being fulfilled.
Galatians chapter 3 tells us this pretty clearly.
So when did Jesus make the new covenant?
Are you saying He put it on hold? and what scriptures say so?
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luk 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Luk 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
MAD who rejects Gods word in the book of Hebrews is very poor indeed.
LA
"God is not doing anything with nations anymore; Rom 11:30. Everything is done through Christ and what the individual believes about him."
Yes, Jesus Christ works through the remnant and transforms individuals by placing his Spirit and his mind in those individuals. Christianity became many transformed individuals.
And this is why Transformational Marxism - what is called the Frankfurt School - targets this Christianity of individuals to be wrecked.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/921_frankfurt.html
Georg Lukács, one of the early founders of the Frankfurt School talked about "Aufhebung der Kultur," Abolishment of Culture, by which he meant getting rid of the Western culture based upon this individualized Christianity and the family.
Lukacs was aware of protestant individualism and its affirmation of an
individual's
personal relationship with God, as Jesus Christ the Son. The West had
affirmed the individual and his spiritual rise above the mere flesh of
man through Christ and the Holy Spirit. But Marxism affirms the
collective, the group. and hence the phrase "It takes a village to
raise a child."
The Transformational Marxists - without calling themselves and their social engineer friends Marxists - have worked for decades to diminish that individualism and individual spirituality inspired by Biblical Christianity. To diminish individual
spirituality and the focus on the individual in Western culture, they
knew they must change the society surrounding the Christian churches
as well as infiltrate the churches themselves with the Marxist
dialectic process of arguing against Truth and replace the born from above Christian individual with an individual spirit from the Holy Spirit with man as mere flesh in the churches (I Corinthians 2: 14). And cultural Marxism also set out to diminish the strength of the American family and overthrow the Christian father and husband as the authority in the family.
Sets of false doctrines weaken the spiritual strength of that Christianity of changed individuals.
Yes, Jesus Christ works through the remnant and transforms individuals by placing his Spirit and his mind in those individuals. Christianity became many transformed individuals.
And this is why Transformational Marxism - what is called the Frankfurt School - targets this Christianity of individuals to be wrecked.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/921_frankfurt.html
Georg Lukács, one of the early founders of the Frankfurt School talked about "Aufhebung der Kultur," Abolishment of Culture, by which he meant getting rid of the Western culture based upon this individualized Christianity and the family.
Lukacs was aware of protestant individualism and its affirmation of an
individual's
personal relationship with God, as Jesus Christ the Son. The West had
affirmed the individual and his spiritual rise above the mere flesh of
man through Christ and the Holy Spirit. But Marxism affirms the
collective, the group. and hence the phrase "It takes a village to
raise a child."
The Transformational Marxists - without calling themselves and their social engineer friends Marxists - have worked for decades to diminish that individualism and individual spirituality inspired by Biblical Christianity. To diminish individual
spirituality and the focus on the individual in Western culture, they
knew they must change the society surrounding the Christian churches
as well as infiltrate the churches themselves with the Marxist
dialectic process of arguing against Truth and replace the born from above Christian individual with an individual spirit from the Holy Spirit with man as mere flesh in the churches (I Corinthians 2: 14). And cultural Marxism also set out to diminish the strength of the American family and overthrow the Christian father and husband as the authority in the family.
Sets of false doctrines weaken the spiritual strength of that Christianity of changed individuals.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I didn't meant to atomize the church; only to say that there are only 2 groups now that God 'deals' with: believers vs not. He's not doing anything with nation-states. It never figures in the ordinary language passages about the 2nd coming in judgement.
With your background in the Frankfurt school, it would be great if you would help a pastor friend of mine and review his book on Nazi philosophy, NAZI OAKS. By Mark Musser. Christianbooks.com.
I'd love to have you review my CLICHES story as well, historical fiction. (Mark's is a historical study). I'll get you a free copy if you send me an address. The summary is at Amazon, and that's where I need reviews. https://www.amazon.com/Our-Cliches-Are-Doing-Thinking/dp/1480043524
Rondonmonson
New member
I know the scriptures brother. When you post 20 I am probably not going to try and decipher your point.Post 2 or 3 and I probably will take notice. As per your point. I am saying the "Scripture" that says I will make a "New Covenant" with you and write my laws upon your hearts is speaking about Israel, and since Israel has not yet as a Nation accepted Jesus as their Messiah, this prophecy has not yet come to pass. The Prophets were not speaking about a Gentile Church.
In essence their is no New Covenant, its only "new" as in different from the Laws of Moses, to be new it would have to be a New Thing/Covenant, which it is not. It was the ORIGINAL COVENANT !! Galatians chapter 3 tells you this. The Law came 430 years after the PROMISE. Did God make a Law Covenant with Abraham or Moses? So why would anyone not understand the Covenant with Abraham is by Promise, not by Law, thus we are justified by the promise, and not by the Law.
I am saying you and many like you place the Church in the stead of Israel, and it is just nonsensical to me. When God writes the Laws in His Children Israels hearts, they will have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah and he will give them the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles never had a Promise, never had a Law and thus nothing could ever be New to them. The Church was given the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Israel will be given the Holy Spirit after the Church is Raptured, when Elijah turns them back to God/Jesus.
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Rondonmonson
New member
God actually will work through many nations. He will use the Anti-Christ and 10 Kings to judge the Harlot which is All False Religion, in Rev. 17:17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
The Church is not in the Tribulation, and God protects Israel for 1260 Days. So God is not finished with Nations. The Tribulation is JACOBS TROUBLE, it is brought forth for the sole purpose to Get Israel to Repent/Atone.