Hate Crime

[billwald]

>First, a black man raping a white woman would not in itself be a hate crime.

True, but a white man raping a black woman is.

 

[PureX]

Oh, baloney.

 

[zoo22]

Over-simplistic "one-size-fits-all" platitudes about the law may play well to fools who don't want to be bothered to consider the complexity of the real world, but justice requires that honest men and women take that responsibility and do the work it asks of us.

Well put.

 

[zoo22]

After reading through this thread (which is really interesting, btw) there's at least one thing I didn't see addressed (though I may have missed it) ...

A hate crime (crime based on hatred towards race, religion, color, origin) does more than simply instill fear/emotional damage to the target group. Hate crime also insites cultural dischord. The social unrest that is/can be caused by a hate crime murder makes it "more" than murder, because in addition to the crime it is also a threat to society.

This potential for dischord BTW, is why many racial hate groups can be pleased with with any type of race-related crimes, including those againt their own race ... They understand that it has the potential to lead to far bigger things. Hate fuels hate.

 

[Mustard Seed]

New term! Like Crimes! Get extra punishment for enjoying the money you stole!

New term! Like Crimes! Get extra punishment for enjoying the money you stole!

New term! Like Crimes! Get extra punishment for enjoying the money you stole!

 

[Frank Ernest]

The problem with "hate" crimes is that they divert the attention of justice away from the rational and toward the emotional. If the law diverts from the objective (right vs wrong) and becomes an emotional playground (love vs hate), anything goes.

It's also a one-way street where the supposedly offended (hated) can inject political correctness into the system, status crimes (convicted by who you are, not what you did), etc. which should be abhored in any true legal system.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

What is your thought on Hate Crime?

I think it's stupid. Crime is crime. I couldn't care less what the criminal's motivation is.

 

[BillyBob]

Yep!

 

[Lighthouse]

Stealing a can of soup to feed your starving children is the same as stealing a car, and should have equal sentence?
Torturing a child to death should have the same penalty as hitting a kid that ran out into the street and died?

A kid getting hit when he runs out into the street is an accident, not murder.:doh: There should be no penalty for that.

And why steal soup to feed your children when there are plenty of places where they give out food?

 

[PureX]

I think it would be very helpful for you two (BB and EOJ) to seriously try and argue for the opposing opinion once in a while. It would force you to consider the other point of view, and to try and articulate it.

 

[Lighthouse]

There is a difference in lying.
Telling your wife that she doesn't look fat when she's pregrnant may be a lie, but said to help rather than harm.

That's not a lie. A pregnant woman does not look fat, she looks pregnant. And pregnant women are not the only ones who ask their husbands if they look fat:nono:

 

[BillyBob]

I think it would be very helpful for you two (BB and EOJ) to seriously try and argue for the opposing opinion once in a while.

Why would I want to argue for the wrong side?

It would force you to consider the other point of view, and to try and articulate it.

What other point of view, that blacks are whiney racists and stupid laws have been made which promote racism? What other point of view is there?????

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I think it would be very helpful for you two (BB and EOJ) to seriously try and argue for the opposing opinion once in a while.

I'd rather argue for my own opinion, thanks.

It would force you to consider the other point of view, and to try and articulate it.

Who said I've never considered the other point of view?

 

[beanieboy]

But premeditated murder isn't hate crime. Or am I just lost?

As I said, "hate crime" should be relabeled "crime of terrorism.

In the documentary "Four little girls," KKK members in the 50s and 60s were bombing black churches.

They were destroying property, but the intent was to keep black people afraid and in their place.

I'm sure that bombing a random church is a "hate" crime, but it doesn't cause terror to a group of people. That is the point of such crimes of terror - to send a message.
And these kind of crimes tend to be much more heinous.

Take the case of Matthew Shephard.

They could have just beat him up if that was the true motive.
But they tied him up, beat him up, put cigarettes out on him, pistol whipped him, and then left hm there so badly bruised and beaten, that the boy who found him wasn't sure if he was human, and the police, who saw his picture, said that they could never have identified him.

 

[beanieboy]

After reading through this thread (which is really interesting, btw) there's at least one thing I didn't see addressed (though I may have missed it) ...

A hate crime (crime based on hatred towards race, religion, color, origin) does more than simply instill fear/emotional damage to the target group. Hate crime also insites cultural dischord. The social unrest that is/can be caused by a hate crime murder makes it "more" than murder, because in addition to the crime it is also a threat to society.

This potential for dischord BTW, is why many racial hate groups can be pleased with with any type of race-related crimes, including those againt their own race ... They understand that it has the potential to lead to far bigger things. Hate fuels hate.

This is my point.

Why is flying a plane into the WTC "terrorism"?
Isn't everyone who is killed feeling terror?
Why not just call it murder?

The thing is, I live in Minneapolis, but people were worried that there would be an attack on one of our towers, or were afraid of shopping in the Mall of America (because bombing it would be symbolic), etc.

Terrorism causes fear in society, where as, if BillyBob killed his next door neighbor, I wouldn't have the same kind of reaction, and so, it is therefore, not "terrorism."

 

[PureX]

This is my point.

Why is flying a plane into the WTC "terrorism"?
Isn't everyone who is killed feeling terror?
Why not just call it murder?

The thing is, I live in Minneapolis, but people were worried that there would be an attack on one of our towers, or were afraid of shopping in the Mall of America (because bombing it would be symbolic), etc.

Terrorism causes fear in society, where as, if BillyBob killed his next door neighbor, I wouldn't have the same kind of reaction, and so, it is therefore, not "terrorism."

Yes, but this all adds a level of complexity to the conversation that the willfully stupid among us don't want to deal with. They don't want to consider the motives, or the intentions behind the crime, because they resent complexity, and because it will cause them to face the reality that it's difficult to ever be certain of guilt once we begin to consider motives and mitigation. They'd rather just pass judgment and execute people quickly than face their own inability to be absolutely right all the time about everything. This is sad but true.

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

After reading through this thread (which is really interesting, btw) there's at least one thing I didn't see addressed (though I may have missed it) ...

A hate crime (crime based on hatred towards race, religion, color, origin) does more than simply instill fear/emotional damage to the target group. Hate crime also insites cultural dischord. The social unrest that is/can be caused by a hate crime murder makes it "more" than murder, because in addition to the crime it is also a threat to society.

This potential for dischord BTW, is why many racial hate groups can be pleased with with any type of race-related crimes, including those againt their own race ... They understand that it has the potential to lead to far bigger things. Hate fuels hate.

Since most "hate crimes" involve murder, I'll just stick with the crime of murder in any example.
What communities do you know of where murder wouldn't cause some form of dischord?

 

[beanieboy]

Since most "hate crimes" involve murder, I'll just stick with the crime of murder in any example.
What communities do you know of where murder wouldn't cause some form of dischord?

So, why do we accept "terrorism" as a term?
All they are doing is vandalizing (car bombs), or murder (flying planes into buildings).

Why call someone a terrorist, instead of a vandal, or a murderer?

Why not simply have a War on Murder?

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Yes, but this all adds a level of complexity to the conversation that the willfully stupid among us don't want to deal with. They don't want to consider the motives, or the intentions behind the crime, because they resent complexity, and because it will cause them to face the reality that it's difficult to ever be certain of guilt once we begin to consider motives and mitigation. They'd rather just pass judgment and execute people quickly than face their own inability to be absolutely right all the time about everything. This is sad but true.

Motive, to end someone's life. Intentions behind the crime? To make sure they don't breathe any longer than needed.
As far as reality... there are people out there that are by far smarter than you give them credit for and some of them base their convictions on the facts that can be presented.

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

So, why do we accept "terrorism" as a term?
All they are doing is vandalizing (car bombs), or murder (flying planes into buildings).

Why call someone a terrorist, instead of a vandal, or a murderer?

Why not simply have a War on Murder?

Terrorism doesn't just contain murder as it's only crime.