HaShem - 'The Name'
- Thread starter beameup
- Start date
Greetings beameup,
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
He was given this Name at his exaltation, therefore he did not possess this Name before he was born.
Kind regards
Trevor
This is speaking of Jesus Christ’s future judgements upon the inhabitants of the earth. He is represented as the Name of Yahweh because he is the embodiment of all that the Name represents. After his exaltation he was given this Name, that is above every name:
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV): 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
He was given this Name at his exaltation, therefore he did not possess this Name before he was born.
Kind regards
Trevor
beameup
New member
It's not quite that simple. Let's take a comprehensive look into the Old Testament:
Behold, I send an ANGEL before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for MY NAME IS IN HIM. - Exodus 23:20-21
Greetings again beameup,
In a sense then we have two “Yahwehs”, but the scripture teaches that there is only One God, One Yahweh, One God the Father. Thus the only solution is that the One Yahweh confers His Name upon His representatives.
As you say that we should “take a comprehensive look into the Old Testament”, I imagine you have also considered when three men visited Abraham, and eventually it states that one of these is “Yahweh”, and while two angels went down to Sodom, “Yahweh” stays with Abraham and decides the fate of Sodom. Have you considered the two “Yahwehs” in the following?
Genesis 19:24 (KJV): Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
My explanation of the above is that the Angel bearing God’s Name called upon Yahweh, God the Father in heaven, to rain fire from heaven to destroy Sodom. If this Yahweh on the earth was Jesus and fully equal with God the Father, why could not he have destroyed Sodom directly?
Also have you considered the two “Yahwehs” in the following?
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satana standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
My explanation of the above is that the Angel bearing God’s Name called upon Yahweh, God the Father in heaven, to rebuke Satan. If this Yahweh on the earth was Jesus and fully equal with God the Father, why did not he himself rebuke Satan directly?
I also believe that the following is quoting and alluding to this incident and it identifies the Name bearing angel as Michael the archangel:
Jude 8-10 (KJV): 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Kind regards
Trevor
I have no problem with the above, as it indicates that this angel was given the Yahweh Name because he represented God, acted and spoke on His behalf.
In a sense then we have two “Yahwehs”, but the scripture teaches that there is only One God, One Yahweh, One God the Father. Thus the only solution is that the One Yahweh confers His Name upon His representatives.
As you say that we should “take a comprehensive look into the Old Testament”, I imagine you have also considered when three men visited Abraham, and eventually it states that one of these is “Yahweh”, and while two angels went down to Sodom, “Yahweh” stays with Abraham and decides the fate of Sodom. Have you considered the two “Yahwehs” in the following?
Genesis 19:24 (KJV): Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
My explanation of the above is that the Angel bearing God’s Name called upon Yahweh, God the Father in heaven, to rain fire from heaven to destroy Sodom. If this Yahweh on the earth was Jesus and fully equal with God the Father, why could not he have destroyed Sodom directly?
Also have you considered the two “Yahwehs” in the following?
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satana standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
My explanation of the above is that the Angel bearing God’s Name called upon Yahweh, God the Father in heaven, to rebuke Satan. If this Yahweh on the earth was Jesus and fully equal with God the Father, why did not he himself rebuke Satan directly?
I also believe that the following is quoting and alluding to this incident and it identifies the Name bearing angel as Michael the archangel:
Jude 8-10 (KJV): 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Kind regards
Trevor
beameup
New member
I noticed that you continually avoid the fact that an "Angel" accepts WORSHIP.
It is apparent that you do not take "the whole council of God", but instead
"pick-and-choose" which portions fit your Watchtower Society paradigm.
All heresies stem from eisegesis... "reading into the text what you want"
based on pre-conceived ideas. This is what those of "Judaism" have been doing since 70 A.D.
:mock:
It is apparent that you do not take "the whole council of God", but instead
"pick-and-choose" which portions fit your Watchtower Society paradigm.
All heresies stem from eisegesis... "reading into the text what you want"
based on pre-conceived ideas. This is what those of "Judaism" have been doing since 70 A.D.
:mock:
Last edited:
beameup
New member
David gathered together all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand. And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the Ark of God, whose NAME is called by THE NAME of YHWH of hosts that dwells between the cherubims. - 2 Samuel 6:1-2
beameup
New member
Let them praise THE NAME of YHWH: for HIS NAME alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven. - Psalm 148:13
Solomon: Now the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; for I have risen in place of my father David and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised, and have built the HOUSE for THE NAME of YHWH, the God of Israel. - 1 Kings 8:20
And it will come about that whoever calls on THE NAME of YHWH will be delivered - Joel 2:32a
Solomon: Now the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; for I have risen in place of my father David and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised, and have built the HOUSE for THE NAME of YHWH, the God of Israel. - 1 Kings 8:20
And it will come about that whoever calls on THE NAME of YHWH will be delivered - Joel 2:32a
beameup
New member
And he said unto me, Son of man [Ezekiel], the place of MY THRONE, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever, and MY HOLY NAME, shall the house of Israel no more defile - Ezekiel 43:7a
There will come a day when Israel (ie: Jews) will NO LONGER DEFILE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
There will come a day when Israel (ie: Jews) will NO LONGER DEFILE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
Last edited:
Greetings again beameup,
Concerning the subject of this thread, the Name, most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
I also like the unique spelling of "will be" as "wilbe".
Kind regards
Trevor
I was disappointed that you did not comment on Genesis 19:24 , Zechariah 3:1-2 and Jude 8-10. I am not a JW and do not believe that Michael the Archangel later became Jesus. I also reject the NWT of John 1:1-2 which they use to support this theory, but I accept the KJV of these verses. I believe that Michael and Gabriel were most probably the two angels at the tomb of Jesus. They sat down because the ultimate focus of their work over many centuries had now been accomplished in the resurrection of Jesus. JWs view Proverbs 8 as the pre-incarnate Jesus, and they use the word Jehovah, not Yahweh. I could list 20 teachings where I disagree with JWs.
Concerning the subject of this thread, the Name, most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
I also like the unique spelling of "will be" as "wilbe".
Kind regards
Trevor
beameup
New member
I will not debate on the scriptures I choose to post.
I will let the Holy Bible speak for itself (KJV for the most part).
Those deniers of Scripture the cultists and those that hold heretical views
are free to argue with God and the things he has revealed through His Word.
So far, it is obvious that "THE NAME" of YHWH is NOT the unpronounceable YHWH.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on MY NAME, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, YHWH is my God. - Zechariah 13:9
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same MY NAME shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto MY NAME, and a pure offering: for MY NAME shall be great among the heathen, saith the YHWH of Hosts.- Malachi 1:11
I will let the Holy Bible speak for itself (KJV for the most part).
Those deniers of Scripture the cultists and those that hold heretical views
are free to argue with God and the things he has revealed through His Word.
So far, it is obvious that "THE NAME" of YHWH is NOT the unpronounceable YHWH.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on MY NAME, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, YHWH is my God. - Zechariah 13:9
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same MY NAME shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto MY NAME, and a pure offering: for MY NAME shall be great among the heathen, saith the YHWH of Hosts.- Malachi 1:11
beameup
New member
In God we have boasted all day long,
And we will give thanks to YOUR NAME forever. - Psalm 44:8
They have burned Your sanctuary to the ground;
They have defiled the dwelling place of YOUR NAME.
Psalm of Asaph Ps 74:7
I will bow down toward Your holy temple
And give thanks to Your NAME for Your
lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your WORD
together with Your NAME. - Psalm 138:2
And we will give thanks to YOUR NAME forever. - Psalm 44:8
They have burned Your sanctuary to the ground;
They have defiled the dwelling place of YOUR NAME.
Psalm of Asaph Ps 74:7
I will bow down toward Your holy temple
And give thanks to Your NAME for Your
lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your WORD
together with Your NAME. - Psalm 138:2
Last edited:
Still rejecting the Testimony of Yeshua?
Take your pick from the T/R, W/H, or any other text:
Matthew 11:10 Textus Receptus
10 ουτος γαρ εστι περι ου γεγραπται ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου
Matthew 11:10 Westcott-Hort
10 ουτος εστιν περι ου γεγραπται ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου
Both the T/R and the W/H quote Exodus 23:20a WORD FOR WORD from the Septuagint:
Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
20 και ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ινα φυλαξη σε εν τη οδω οπως εισαγαγη σε εις την γην ην ητοιμασα σοι
Matthew 11:10b -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
Exodus 23:20a -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
"ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
"Behold, I send My Messenger-Angel before your face"
Yeshua therefore clearly states that Yohanan EliYahu is the Malak of Exodus 23:20-23; and the Name of the Father is indeed in the name EliYahu, (El and Yah), and there is no other place where this clear emphatic statement quoted above may be found in the scripture. Those who say that this Matthew statement and its companion passages are quoted from Malachi 3:1 are liars, who cannot tell the difference between "μου" and "σου", "me" and "you", "my" and "thy", or "me" and "thee", and unfortunately for you that cancels out most every commentary of the so-called scholars I have ever read. Just because they all agree to blindly run toward the precipice all together does not make the herd correct.
EDIT - Addendum:
Malachi 3:1 KJV (Hebrew Text)
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:1 Brenton English Translation (Greek Text)
1 Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
1 ιδου εγω εξαποστελλω τον αγγελον μου και επιβλεψεται οδον προ προσωπου μου και εξαιφνης ηξει εις τον ναον εαυτου κυριος ον υμεις ζητειτε και ο αγγελος της διαθηκης ον υμεις θελετε ιδου ερχεται λεγει κυριος παντοκρατωρ
Malachi 3:1a
1 ιδου εγω εξαποστελλω τον αγγελον μου και επιβλεψεται οδον προ προσωπου μου"
Exodus 23:20a -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
Matthew 11:10b -- "ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου"
:sheep:
Last edited:
beameup
New member
:readthis:
The Angel of the LORD accepts WORSHIP.
God alone is to be worshipped.
Therefore, the Angel of the LORD is God.
See how easy that is?
It is not hard to see it unless one does not want to see it.
Here it is again for you in plain simple English:
:readthis:
Matthew 11:10 KJV
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 1:2 KJV
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Luke 7:27 KJV
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Exodus 23:20 KJV
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Exodus 23:20 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
Malachi 3:1 KJV
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:1 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
1 Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
The only thing you have shown to be easy is how easily you will fall down and worship man or angel without even knowing for sure what you worship. Therefore you show yourself worse off than the woman at the well; for when Yeshua told her the truth she believed him, but I have shown you his words here and you reject his words yet again while claiming that you worship him and not even knowing whether it is him or not in the passage you quote to make your case! Worse yet when you are shown the error of your way you claim to see! Therefore you remain blind just as the Pharisees whom you denounce as having been blind! :crackup:
beameup
New member
I can "see" that you are incapable of contributing to the original post.
Instead, you babble :blabla: . I've seen people that "babble" and saliva usually runs down their cheek.
Instead of trampling on a topic, like you do, either just sit in the corner :dunce: or Post a Topic of your own.
How many times have you died and then come back to life? enquiring minds would like to know.
The name God and Lord are just fine - EOT
Apple7
New member
Michael is Jesus' Archangel, as witnessed here...
And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the being of a nation until that time. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book. And many of those sleeping in the earth's dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and to everlasting abhorrence. And those who act wisely shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and those turning many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. (Daniel 12.1 – 3)
Daniel 12 informs the reader that the Archangel Michael will be present at the First and Second Resurrections.
We know from scripture that the First Resurrection occurs for the Righteous ones following Jesus.
Observe that the First Resurrection is for ‘your’ people…NOT ‘his’ people…therefore, Michael cannot be Jesus.
Again, ‘your’ people is mentioned a second time, this time in relation to the ones written in The Book…of which, Revelation informs the reader is the Lamb’s Book of Life….NOT Michael’s Book of Life.
beameup
New member
I'm kind of partial to Jesus or Yeshua
It seems that God repeatedly emphasizes that He does, in fact, have a NAME
However, the Jews tell us that He only has an unpronounceable "name" - YHWH
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; - Philippians 2:9-10