Agree! :up:VanhoozerRocks said:
Although.... why look for the "golden mean"?
What if one view is right and the other wrong? Wouldn't then the "golden mean" be in error?
God's ability according to Calvinism
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Although.... why look for the "golden mean"?
What if one view is right and the other wrong? Wouldn't then the "golden mean" be in error?
allsmiles said:Thanks!
Brings me back to my question to Shimei earlier (with some modifications):
Why would a sovereign God want or need to change his mind?
Ever hear of Nineveh?
Jonah 3:
4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.
10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
With regards to the ensuing potter and clay tapdance, I'd like to post one simple question: Could Pharoah have resisted God's will?Knight said:
Paul is clearly telling these people that Pharoah did not have a choice. This is why he knew they would ask how God could still find fault. This is why he answered their question before they even asked. "Who are you to reply against God?" If Paul was saying anything otherwise, he would not have found it necessary to answer the ensuing question.
D'anclaude
New member
Whether you look to the Bible, Torah or Quabbalah for an explanation as to how the word came to be, each one tells you that that before god created everything there was nothing. That is, no existance to speak of; no space and no time. this means that before God created everything the human entity could not exist, as there is no way for either the human soul or body to exist outside of existance. So if there was for some reason a way for you to exist in that condition you would not be able to tell the difference between one point and another, in either time or space, as neither exist as you are.
A sophisticated person might ask, "If there is no time, then how can you say "before the world was created, or after the world was created?" Well, the answer is both simple and inconcievably complex. the simple end is to say that only God can fully answer and comprehend that question, as it is impossible for a human, born and trapped in a three dimensional world , pushed along by passing time to possibly wrap thier head around the whole concept. It is possible, however, if not to begin to understand the concept itself, to see the scope of the idea. I'll try to explain the idea that i think best describes the situation, but I could be unclear , because It will be as I see it, not as others may.
God existed (exists) before (outside) of existance. I use the word outside because that is the word that comes closest to the right preposition, but it's not really the right idea, because the concept i'm trying to show here doesn't exist in the english language, or maybe even in human comprehension anyway, God exists outside of existance and so it's not that he "knows the future" or "changed his mind" that is simply the illusion that we see, Our minds and the minds of our ancestors cannot and could not understand the idea of existing ouside of time- which in itself is almost impossible to comprehend (try to imagine what that would be like and you'll realize it's impossible to grasp) so we saw the illusion that God "foretold the future" or "changed his mind" these are incorrect, because that would be implying that god lives along a timeline, either linear or relative, neither is correct.
therefore, you could say "the universe (meaning the portion of existance that we, humans, exist on at all levels; spiritual, astral, mental physical and emotional) has always existed, because before existance existed, there was no time, and as the word 'always' refers to time, the universe has always existed. [Note: A thought just occured to me: If time is contained within existance, then it has no beginning and no end, as the origin of the universe is impossible to comprehend with our understanding of time. taking this into consideration, that means time is relative after death, and if existance were to end then it will never have existed, which is impossible because i'm typing this right now, and that proves my existance. if I exist then the world exists and so existance has always existed.]
Conclusion: God exists outside of existance, aware but not subject to time, as he created it, and since he created it he is therefore all powerful. If he is all powerful then he is infinitely intelligent and omnipotent. If got were to change his mind (which is impossible, because that would imply that he exists within time) then existance would adapt to make it so the cause of the change never existed, and he would never have changed his mind because it would be his will all long (again impossible because god is not subject to time) I'd write more about WHY God has to exist, but i think i've written a long post already. I'll do so if anyone shows interest.
A sophisticated person might ask, "If there is no time, then how can you say "before the world was created, or after the world was created?" Well, the answer is both simple and inconcievably complex. the simple end is to say that only God can fully answer and comprehend that question, as it is impossible for a human, born and trapped in a three dimensional world , pushed along by passing time to possibly wrap thier head around the whole concept. It is possible, however, if not to begin to understand the concept itself, to see the scope of the idea. I'll try to explain the idea that i think best describes the situation, but I could be unclear , because It will be as I see it, not as others may.
God existed (exists) before (outside) of existance. I use the word outside because that is the word that comes closest to the right preposition, but it's not really the right idea, because the concept i'm trying to show here doesn't exist in the english language, or maybe even in human comprehension anyway, God exists outside of existance and so it's not that he "knows the future" or "changed his mind" that is simply the illusion that we see, Our minds and the minds of our ancestors cannot and could not understand the idea of existing ouside of time- which in itself is almost impossible to comprehend (try to imagine what that would be like and you'll realize it's impossible to grasp) so we saw the illusion that God "foretold the future" or "changed his mind" these are incorrect, because that would be implying that god lives along a timeline, either linear or relative, neither is correct.
therefore, you could say "the universe (meaning the portion of existance that we, humans, exist on at all levels; spiritual, astral, mental physical and emotional) has always existed, because before existance existed, there was no time, and as the word 'always' refers to time, the universe has always existed. [Note: A thought just occured to me: If time is contained within existance, then it has no beginning and no end, as the origin of the universe is impossible to comprehend with our understanding of time. taking this into consideration, that means time is relative after death, and if existance were to end then it will never have existed, which is impossible because i'm typing this right now, and that proves my existance. if I exist then the world exists and so existance has always existed.]
Conclusion: God exists outside of existance, aware but not subject to time, as he created it, and since he created it he is therefore all powerful. If he is all powerful then he is infinitely intelligent and omnipotent. If got were to change his mind (which is impossible, because that would imply that he exists within time) then existance would adapt to make it so the cause of the change never existed, and he would never have changed his mind because it would be his will all long (again impossible because god is not subject to time) I'd write more about WHY God has to exist, but i think i've written a long post already. I'll do so if anyone shows interest.
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Not only could the Pharaoh have resisted God's will, the Pharaoh DID resist God's will!Johnny said:
God's will was that the Pharaoh let His people go. The Pharaoh rejected God's will.
God knew the type of person the Pharaoh was. God knew the Pharaoh's heart. God knew that the Pharaoh would not let His people go and He also knew that the Pharaoh was proud and would only harden further when God displayed His mighty wrath!
Therefore God used the already marred vessel (the Pharaoh) to His advantage.
Ask yourself.....
Did the potter make a marred vessel?
Or was the vessel already marred in the hand of the potter?
The answer is clearly stated in the Bible, go see for yourself.
allsmiles
New member
Knight said:
The verse is unequivocal in it's message Knight, it doesn't need your explanation and frankly, I don't see your explanation in the passage itself. Yours is a watered down version, nowhere near as strong as what the text actually says.
Jesus was the only person that was perfect and without sin.
Not according to the Bible but you are free to think whatever you wish.
That's true, of course that affirms my point completely, but it is true.
Yet it needs yours?? :think:allsmiles said:
Actually my explanation is nothing more than stating what the verse actually says.
It's pretty simple really.... man cannot save himself, nor can man (in a fallen world) remain perfect and therefore not need a savior.
Man isn't born "seeking" after God. (Romans 3:11)
Instead, God draws all me toward Him. (John 12:32)
God does not desire that any man reject Him. (1st Timothy 2:4)
So God provides the payment for sin for all men. (1st Timothy 4:10)
And God let's man decide his own eternal destiny with his own heart and own mouth. (Romans 10:9-10)
Ultimately, God is a gentlemen. He does not kidnap or force any man to spend eternity where he does not want to be. Yet He is also merciful and provides a way for man to right his wrongs. God draws and pulls all men towards the truth but doesn't violate their will to the point where He is making their choices for them. God walks a fine line. He doesn't violate freedom (by His design) yet He also points us in the right direction so that our eternal destiny will be fair and just. Nobody will go to heaven that shouldn't be there, and no one will go to hell that hasn't chose that fate.