Gnosticism:

[Letsargue]

Semantics

I'm sure Clark meant all the prepositions that you shared. Lets be careful now about splitting hairs




This presumption misses the mark. 'God' and 'Christ' are a central part of Gnostic Theology. Yep. - thats right.


pj

It's what one SAYS. --- It's what God says, and not what you think Christ meant in his heart. -- Sayings also come from the heart, therefore, he meant to say "BY the Spirit", and not "IN the Spirit". -- SORRY!

It's not "Splitting hairs; it's a MATTER OF "TRUTH", in what one TEACHES.

Paul -- 100910

 

[Clark Frugal]

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (1Cr 12:4-7)

FreeLight is correct of course. The difference between 'of' 'by' and 'in' are too subtle for me. A study of the NT shows a description of God working in you. And it shows God working in you by how His Spirit works with people. In Him we live and move and have our Being (Acts 17:28) and this is beautifully described in the Gnostic Writings as well.

 

[agnostic_gnostic]

Great post Clark Frugal! I would like to add Luke 17;21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Perhaps we will have an interesting debate or perhaps you will agree with me. I believe that Jesus did not mean that he was the only son of God. That changed under Constantine. Constantine did not want people to believe that God was within. That would upset the social hierarchy. From being a spiritual teaching Christianity became a way of social control based on fear and threats of hell. Also, God was seen more as the boss, Jesus as the boss's son and then below Jesus of course Constantine, kind of plant manager here on earth.

 

[freelight]

darkness and light.................

darkness and light.................

Great post Clark Frugal! I would like to add Luke 17;21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Perhaps we will have an interesting debate or perhaps you will agree with me. I believe that Jesus did not mean that he was the only son of God. That changed under Constantine. Constantine did not want people to believe that God was within. That would upset the social hierarchy. From being a spiritual teaching Christianity became a way of social control based on fear and threats of hell. Also, God was seen more as the boss, Jesus as the boss's son and then below Jesus of course Constantine, kind of plant manager here on earth.

Hi ag,

See my view of Gnosis and Agnosis - I also left a message in your visitor message area on ur profile (if you wanted to join our Gnostic social group) - I'm more 'gnostic' in orientation, but accept 'agnosis' as existing as well, for in infinity, there is both knowledge and ignorance. - a gnostic spiritualist continues in the way of Spirit, in creative insight, self-discovery and progressive revelation along Life's path. There is however always the 'unknown' as it unfolds itself to us in the form of 'gnosis' so that Life is an eternal adventure of new discovery. 'God' is both 'knowable' and 'unknowable' and this is the wonderful paradox considered in different contexts.

Blessings in both gnosis and agnosis,




paul (pj)

 

[Deepskyy]

Lets also not bother taking into account the Jewish mysticism literature that buts emphasis on special spiritual knowledge which started oh about 200 years BCE.

 

[freelight]

knowledge is fundamental..............

knowledge is fundamental..............

Lets also not bother taking into account the Jewish mysticism literature that buts emphasis on special spiritual knowledge which started oh about 200 years BCE.

Yes,....and from other ancient schools of mystic knowledge too we have the grant of 'jnana-yoga', the 'knowledge' of spiritual truth and communion

God being Light is the origin and unveiler of knowledge, therefore 'gnosis' is essential to life.



pj

 

[One Truth]

Show me the first Old Testament, or New Testament person that was justified of God, that was required to read and study EVERY pile of garbage that man wrote using his own philosophy that wasn’t the words of God, before he was justified. --- Are we supposed to follow your philosophy of half and half Gnosticism? - Half material and half spiritual; and the spiritual is only there because some coward or lonely Gnostic couldn’t get it by the total philosophy of the material. -- You guys can’t even get it with your NEW philosophy of the Spiritual added to your material little world. --- You think I’m wrong about Mary and Mary. Read the Book and you’ll SEE that’s what God said. - GOD SAID, not some Gnostic Philosopher. – It’s CALLED, “CHRISTIAN”, not Gnosticism!

Paul – 100610

You seem to accept by "blind" faith that the Bible is THE WORD, yet the Gnosis of the WORD is experiential. It is not by philosophical discussion that one KNOWS what God is SAYING. It is by experience... spiritual experiential KNOWLEDGE, BY the Spirit of Truth.

How is it that you cannot see that the Bible contains Truth, but as a whole it is not THE Truth, nor is it THE Word of God? The OT and the NT were not meant to be taken literally, but Literalist insist that the Bible is the ONLY way that God speaks and has spoken to man. There are many writings, many other pieces to the puzzle, the mystery of Life, that come from Truths found in other "scriptures" and in many other writings, ancient and comtemporary. No one Book contains ALL Truth... and no ONE Book should be considered absolute Truth. Truth is relative... Truth is progressive.... Truth is NOT hidden... it just needs to be revealed and remembered. It is revealed by the Spirit of Truth and becomes experiential in that revelation. I believe Gnostics refer to these different relative "levels" as initiations. You spoke of Baptism earlier. Baptism is only a symbolic act... It is not the act that changes anyone... it is the understanding of the meaning of the symbol that becomes the catalyst for that change... it is not something that is meant to be literal. There are many facets to this symbol of Baptism and none are meant to be a literal initiative to the experiential understanding of the spiritual Truth regarding Baptism.

As freelight said: " 'gnosis' is essential to life"

OT

 

[Letsargue]

You seem to accept by "blind" faith that the Bible is THE WORD, yet the Gnosis of the WORD is experiential. It is not by philosophical discussion that one KNOWS what God is SAYING. It is by experience... spiritual experiential KNOWLEDGE, BY the Spirit of Truth.

How is it that you cannot see that the Bible contains Truth, but as a whole it is not THE Truth, nor is it THE Word of God? The OT and the NT were not meant to be taken literally, but Literalist insist that the Bible is the ONLY way that God speaks and has spoken to man. There are many writings, many other pieces to the puzzle, the mystery of Life, that come from Truths found in other "scriptures" and in many other writings, ancient and comtemporary. No one Book contains ALL Truth... and no ONE Book should be considered absolute Truth. Truth is relative... Truth is progressive.... Truth is NOT hidden... it just needs to be revealed and remembered. It is revealed by the Spirit of Truth and becomes experiential in that revelation. I believe Gnostics refer to these different relative "levels" as initiations. You spoke of Baptism earlier. Baptism is only a symbolic act... It is not the act that changes anyone... it is the understanding of the meaning of the symbol that becomes the catalyst for that change... it is not something that is meant to be literal. There are many facets to this symbol of Baptism and none are meant to be a literal initiative to the experiential understanding of the spiritual Truth regarding Baptism.

As freelight said: " 'gnosis' is essential to life"

OT

You left out the Church / The Body of Christ / God / The Word of God, which is the Truth, the ONLY Truth that is acceptable to the Knowledge of God.

Paul – 112910

 

[One Truth]

You left out the Church / The Body of Christ / God / The Word of God, which is the Truth, the ONLY Truth that is acceptable to the Knowledge of God.

Paul – 112910

Acceptable to whom? Someone who is closed-minded and so caught in a cycle of sleep that they are unable to wake up to reality?

When I see someone, like yourself and Amiel, I know that I am only going to get Biblical answers and quotes, because, as you say, "the Bible is the only Truth". Unfortunately, you both are the type of person who already knows everything and are no longer teachable because you have closed your minds from being able to receive any further truth. It takes a "rude" awakening for people like you to awaken to Truth that is not found in your "comfort zone" of Biblical Truths. I know, because I was there once. Jesus was quite correct when He said "You shall know [experience] the truth, and the truth shall set you free [awaken you]" ... He did not say the Bible would set you free. The Bible had not even been put together and the "New Testament" was a long ways off from even being thought of.

I have also found that most people who think they have all the Truth bound up in one Book, and that believe they have all the knowledge they need, are the ones who really don't read other people's posts who may be speaking truth to them. So I wouldn't doubt if you are the same.

Literalist Christians are the most difficult to converse with because they are not open to the Truth and argue at every corner to prove that their literalism is the ONLY TRUTH.

What is essential to life is really more than "gnosis"... it is relationship with God as a Person.

 

[freelight]

the dawning..........

the dawning..........

Acceptable to whom? Someone who is closed-minded and so caught in a cycle of sleep that they are unable to wake up to reality?

When I see someone, like yourself and Amiel, I know that I am only going to get Biblical answers and quotes, because, as you say, "the Bible is the only Truth". Unfortunately, you both are the type of person who already knows everything and are no longer teachable because you have closed your minds from being able to receive any further truth. It takes a "rude" awakening for people like you to awaken to Truth that is not found in your "comfort zone" of Biblical Truths. I know, because I was there once. Jesus was quite correct when He said "You shall know [experience] the truth, and the truth shall set you free [awaken you]" ... He did not say the Bible would set you free. The Bible had not even been put together and the "New Testament" was a long ways off from even being thought of.

I have also found that most people who think they have all the Truth bound up in one Book, and that believe they have all the knowledge they need, are the ones who really don't read other people's posts who may be speaking truth to them. So I wouldn't doubt if you are the same.

Literalist Christians are the most difficult to converse with because they are not open to the Truth and argue at every corner to prove that their literalism is the ONLY TRUTH.

What is essential to life is really more than "gnosis"... it is relationship with God as a Person.

Indeed.

In fact,...if one is to open to truth, he would lay aside all conceptions or ideas of 'truth' he has for its fresh dawning. And even then,...the truth of life, 'God', Existence...arises as new in every 'moment', ever fresh, living and dynamic. Old concepts, themes, structures may be valid within their own 'contexts',...but one open to truth is ever receptive to progressive revelation as it arises in the NOW. Individually, all we have is the light of consciousness wherein we access all reality to any degree or dimension. 'God' is LIGHT (the Undimensional One)....the Infinite.

Merry Christmas all!


pj

 

[Letsargue]

Acceptable to whom? Someone who is closed-minded and so caught in a cycle of sleep that they are unable to wake up to reality?

When I see someone, like yourself and Amiel, I know that I am only going to get Biblical answers and quotes, because, as you say, "the Bible is the only Truth". Unfortunately, you both are the type of person who already knows everything and are no longer teachable because you have closed your minds from being able to receive any further truth. It takes a "rude" awakening for people like you to awaken to Truth that is not found in your "comfort zone" of Biblical Truths. I know, because I was there once. Jesus was quite correct when He said "You shall know [experience] the truth, and the truth shall set you free [awaken you]" ... He did not say the Bible would set you free. The Bible had not even been put together and the "New Testament" was a long ways off from even being thought of.

I have also found that most people who think they have all the Truth bound up in one Book, and that believe they have all the knowledge they need, are the ones who really don't read other people's posts who may be speaking truth to them. So I wouldn't doubt if you are the same.

Literalist Christians are the most difficult to converse with because they are not open to the Truth and argue at every corner to prove that their literalism is the ONLY TRUTH.

What is essential to life is really more than "gnosis"... it is relationship with God as a Person.

I don’t care what you have found outside of the Scriptures. – What do you think a literal Christian is, if not a Christian? – Does a Christian have to be like you and your foolish doctrine to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN? – A True Christian is formed in the heart from the Word of God as spoken, not some other writings of some self ordained fool that thinks he has all the answers above God, from some other MAN’S BOOKS. – I suppose you’re PROUD of your lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, and your knowledge of the doctrines of MAN.

There is no relationship with God other than through the total WORD OF GOD as spoken by God; and not the relationship with some false prophet writing some foolish nonsense that is not the Word of God.

Paul – 122410

 

[Letsargue]

Indeed.

In fact,...if one is to open to truth, he would lay aside all conceptions or ideas of 'truth' he has for its fresh dawning. And even then,...the truth of life, 'God', Existence...arises as new in every 'moment', ever fresh, living and dynamic. Old concepts, themes, structures may be valid within their own 'contexts',...but one open to truth is ever receptive to progressive revelation as it arises in the NOW. Individually, all we have is the light of consciousness wherein we access all reality to any degree or dimension. 'God' is LIGHT (the Undimensional One)....the Infinite.

Merry Christmas all!


pj

WOW! -- Is that enlightenment? -- Philosophy has no LIGHT IN IT. --- Colossians 2:8 KJV -- That cannot be the TRUTH to a Philosopher, but GOD SAID IT, THEREFORE!

Paul -- 122410

 

[some other dude]

I don’t care what you have found outside of the Scriptures. – What do you think a literal Christian is, if not a Christian? – Does a Christian have to be like you and your foolish doctrine to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN? – A True Christian is formed in the heart from the Word of God as spoken, not some other writings of some self ordained fool that thinks he has all the answers above God, from some other MAN’S BOOKS. – I suppose you’re PROUD of your lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, and your knowledge of the doctrines of MAN.

There is no relationship with God other than through the total WORD OF GOD as spoken by God; and not the relationship with some false prophet writing some foolish nonsense that is not the Word of God.

Paul – 122410

What you just wrote is not in scripture.

 

[agnostic_gnostic]

See my post 23 and then this site ( below).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-NaaKE1xtw&feature=related

 

[One Truth]

I don’t care what you have found outside of the Scriptures. – What do you think a literal Christian is, if not a Christian? – Does a Christian have to be like you and your foolish doctrine to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN? – A True Christian is formed in the heart from the Word of God as spoken, not some other writings of some self ordained fool that thinks he has all the answers above God, from some other MAN’S BOOKS. – I suppose you’re PROUD of your lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, and your knowledge of the doctrines of MAN.

There is no relationship with God other than through the total WORD OF GOD as spoken by God; and not the relationship with some false prophet writing some foolish nonsense that is not the Word of God.

Paul – 122410

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

​

I am not a fool, as I have not said "There is no God."

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
​

Relationship with the Person of God is what Christianity is all about... you cannot have a relationship with a written word. God is not the WRITTEN Word... The Logos, however, IS God : "All that God is the Logos is. Identity, difference, communion are the three phases of the Divine relationship."

You speak of things you are not knowledgable about by experience, Letsargue, and it is a shame that your whole "experience" is centered around a Book, rather than a Person. I pray, one day you will awaken to the glorious revelation of Who God is. That revelation will not come from a Book, either yours or mine. It will come from within you as the Spirit of Truth brings forth that "new creation" which is born of God, which is your true self.

 

[Letsargue]

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

​

I am not a fool, as I have not said "There is no God."

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
​

Relationship with the Person of God is what Christianiy is all about... you cannot have a relationship with a written word. God is not the WRITTEN Word... The Logos, however, IS God : "All that God is the Logos is. Identity, difference, communion are the three phases of the Divine relationship."

You speak of things you are not knowledgable about by experience, Letsargue, and it is a shame that your whole "experience" is centered around a Book, rather than a Person. I pray, one day you will awaken to the glorious revelation of Who God is. That revelation will not come from a Book, either yours or mine. It will come from within you as the Spirit of Truth brings forth that "new creation" which is born of God, which is your true self.

Neither I nor God have said that you have said with your lips - “There is no God” . -- Both God and I say that a “FOOL” says in HIS -( “HEART” )-, - not with his “LIPS”, as you just affirmed in your heart that there is no God. - The “false christian” says in his “heart”, “There is no God”, and the Atheist admits it with his LIPS and not in his heart. - That makes the Atheist not the fool, - but the false Christian is the FOOL.

Paul – 122710

 

[One Truth]

Your literalism has hit it's peek... I have neither said with my LIPS, my HEART, my MIND nor my SPIRIT, nor ever implied in any way, shape or form that "there is no God"... In fact, I said just the opposite in my statement that a relationship with God is what it is all about. Did you fail to read my whole post?

You make it up as you go along, Letsargue. Just your username tells me a tremendous amount about you, without even reading your very argumentative, literalist postings.

You need a "truth" awakening... you need to experience God as a Person. Until you do, you will always have the need to argue and prove yourself "right". And you can never prove yourself "right" to those who have experienced God as a Pesron.

---Gal. 4:16.
---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

If you were only telling the truth youwould only make enemies of those who cannot hear the truth. But since so little of what you preach from your lips and from your reasoning is truth, I am not your enemy, for the truth that you may preach is universal and I have no problem with truth that comes from God. What you believe to be truth is very typical of a literalist Christian who cannot see past the dogmas and doctrines of man and who refuses to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. You are unable to lay aside the letter and receive the spirit. How I pray that you will be released from your unknowing and be lifted into the glories of gnosis (experiential knowledge).

 

[freelight]

divine wisdom........

divine wisdom........

WOW! -- Is that enlightenment? -- Philosophy has no LIGHT IN IT. --- Colossians 2:8 KJV -- That cannot be the TRUTH to a Philosopher, but GOD SAID IT, THEREFORE!

Paul -- 122410

Philosophy properly defined is the love or study of wisdom - something rather commendable.

Assuming that a passage from Colossians is as good as 'God said it' is a 'leap of faith', besides you establishing what the passage is referring to and in what context (a generic reference to 'philosophy' means?). Also dont forget that Paul's theology is essentially 'gnostic' in nature, adding to it the nuance of 'mystery religion' rhetoric.


The Gnosis Archive

Gnostic Teachings (ancient, eclectic and neo-gnostic learning)

In-joy!


pj

 

[Letsargue]

Philosophy properly defined is the love or study of wisdom - something rather commendable.

Assuming that a passage from Colossians is as good as 'God said it' is a 'leap of faith', besides you establishing what the passage is referring to and in what context (a generic reference to 'philosophy' means?). Also dont forget that Paul's theology is essentially 'gnostic' in nature, adding to it the nuance of 'mystery religion' rhetoric.


The Gnosis Archive

Gnostic Teachings (ancient, eclectic and neo-gnostic learning)

In-joy!


pj

OK! - And all the Gnostics and Scholars say AMEN to you, and all the Christians say, HHUUHH what's that.

Paul -- 123110

 

[freelight]

historical research and personal experience..........

historical research and personal experience..........

OK! - And all the Gnostics and Scholars say AMEN to you, and all the Christians say, HHUUHH what's that.

Paul -- 123110

With adequate research, you'll find that a good share of the early christians were 'gnostics' - even Clement of Alexandria calls those who have true knowledge of the Lord's teaching by such name, although his reference was not to groups considered 'heretical' under such name. A true christian is one who follows Jesus and his teachings (both esoteric and exoteric) for he took his closest disciples asides in private and taught them the 'mysteries of the kingdom'. One can study or play with the various gnostic mythologies and interesting heirarchies of eons, powers and luminaries that fill the pleroma, yet still...the essential principles of one recognizing his divine inheritance and the 'battle' of duality between 'flesh' and 'spirit' play out...as even Paul speaks much about, whose teaching of the mysteries some of the gnostics adopted, revering him as a great teacher of gnosis. (Valentinus is purported to have learned from Theudas, a disciple of Paul).

I find it peculiar that so called orthodox christians maintain their attitudes against gnosticism, but this goes back in the 'historic mind' and its 'mechanics', which in order to maintain the historical so called 'physical' resurrection of Jesus fought hard against Docetism, and the liberal spirituality and authority of the gnostics who would not necessarily yield themselves to the growing power of a church-state (i.e. Romish churchianity). - granted, there are gnostic churches who do have an apostolic succession, priesthood, sacraments, essential tenets/principles, creeds, etc. yet they have intellectual freedom and liberties in their religious vocation, for it is that 'living knowledge' of the divine that is ultimately the final authority.



pj