ECT glorydaz says that Romans is Written to Unbelievers

[Arsenios]

Ahh OK.... τηρεῖν (tēréō), rendered observe? How does that relate to Arsenios?

It relates to the manner of discipleship prescribed by Christ as the medicine of Salvation... I think you get that it is only weakly indicated by the gloss 'observe'... Because it indicates an extensive manner of obedience to Christ's commandments, which IS what discipling MEANS in the Christian Faith... And it is what the Church has taught from that very beginning... The obedience is not imposed... Salvation is voluntary at every stage and in every nano-second...

Arsenios

 

[StanJ]

Thank-you.
Thank-you for confessing your motive...
My problem was that I took offense at your resorting to name-calling in the face of humor... I stand convicted of my own hypocrisy, for I profess to follow Christ, who endured spittings and slappings and tauntings without a word, and I get offended by being called a single name... I was wrong to be offended, and I apologize to you and to all here...
And may I say Thank-you for helping me expose that hidden demon in my soul... Such demons don't do all that well when exposed, you know... Light illumines darkness, and the arrogance of being offended can only hold on for so long, until it is escorted from the stage...
So GD was a Prophetess when she said I would be exposed for what I am, which is a hypocrite... I get offended while professing to follow Christ. And I am in your debt Stan... With your help an enemy of God was overturned...
I will try to keep it overturned with your help...
Please keep me in your prayers...
Arsenios

it's called your EGO, and we all have them to deal with.
I personally would not be so dramatic, but it's good to see you got it.

Moving on.

 

[StanJ]

It relates to the manner of discipleship prescribed by Christ as the medicine of Salvation... I think you get that it is only weakly indicated by the gloss 'observe'... Because it indicates an extensive manner of obedience to Christ's commandments, which IS what discipling MEANS in the Christian Faith... And it is what the Church has taught from that very beginning... The obedience is not imposed... Salvation is voluntary at every stage and in every nano-second...
Arsenios

I think it is properly rendered as is, in Matt 28:20, and as it is used 70 times in the NT, applicably rendered as per the following;

to keep watch upon, guard, Mt. 27:36, 54; 28:4; Acts 12:6; to watch over protectively, guard, 1 Jn. 5:18; Rev. 16:15; to mark attentively, to heed, Rev. 1:3; to observe practically, keep strictly, Mt. 19:17; 23:3; 28:20; Mk. 7:9; Jn. 8:51; to preserve, shield, Jn. 17:15; to store up, reserve, Jn. 2:10; 12:7; 1 Pet. 1:4; 2 Pet. 2:4, 9, 17; to keep in custody, Acts 12:5; 16:23; to maintain, Eph. 4:3; 2 Tim. 4:7; to keep in a condition, Jn. 17:11, 12; 1 Cor. 7:37; 2 Cor. 11:9; 1 Tim. 5:22; Jas. 1:27
​

 

[Arsenios]

I think it is properly rendered as is, in Matt 28:20, and as it is used 70 times in the NT, applicably rendered as per the following;

to keep watch upon, guard, Mt. 27:36, 54; 28:4; Acts 12:6; to watch over protectively, guard, 1 Jn. 5:18; Rev. 16:15; to mark attentively, to heed, Rev. 1:3; to observe practically, keep strictly, Mt. 19:17; 23:3; 28:20; Mk. 7:9; Jn. 8:51; to preserve, shield, Jn. 17:15; to store up, reserve, Jn. 2:10; 12:7; 1 Pet. 1:4; 2 Pet. 2:4, 9, 17; to keep in custody, Acts 12:5; 16:23; to maintain, Eph. 4:3; 2 Tim. 4:7; to keep in a condition, Jn. 17:11, 12; 1 Cor. 7:37; 2 Cor. 11:9; 1 Tim. 5:22; Jas. 1:27
​

First the sentence structure:

διδασκοντες αυτους τηρειν παντα
teaching them to be observing ALL...

οσα ενετειλαμην υμιν
as much as I have commanded to you to be doing

So when we go to τηρειν, which is a present ongoing active infinitive of continuous action, I found this as its primary meaning, with 5 more that derive from this one:

to attend to carefully, take care of

Pentecost, for instance... Did Christ command His Apostles to attend carefully to this day? Was this day a day of observance for the early Church?

Paul seems to confirm that it was, in Acts 20:16 and in 1 Cor 16:8.

And one can name a large number of things that the early Churches carefully attended to in all places where there was a Church, and which continue even to this present day and hour...

So that we can derive from this pattern of Church practices that are universal, an idea of what a large number of the Commandments of Christ WERE to His Apostles... Christ commanded His Apostles to GO and to DISCIPLE the ethnoi... He did not command them to write the New Testament Bible and pass out copies to interested by-standers...

Do you have any other way, directly from the Bible, that we can KNOW exactly WHAT all these commandments were?

And if they were handed from Christ to the Apostles for us, do they then NOT fall under the hubris of secular humanism?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

it's called your EGO, and we all have them to deal with.
I personally would not be so dramatic, but it's good to see you got it.

Moving on.

Will you pray for me?

A.

 

[Interplanner]

Back to the OP,
Romans was written especially for Jews returning to Rome after Claudius ban (Acts 18), because the non-Jewish Christians were now the leaders and the mingling was not as easy as at first.

 

[Arsenios]

Back to the OP,
Romans was written especially for Jews returning to Rome after Claudius ban (Acts 18), because the non-Jewish Christians were now the leaders and the mingling was not as easy as at first.

Well, to whom COULD Paul have written the Epistle to the Romans?

The Ancient Church understood (and understands) it to have been written to the Church at Rome.

Some may understand it to have been written to Jews only...
At which point we must determine if the Jews to whom it was written were Christians or non-Christians...
And then if non-Christians, if they were potential converts (enquirers) or sworn enemies of Christ...

Some may understand it to have been written for Gentile Christians only - I don't know anyone who thinks so...

Who else? Non-Christian gentiles?

Druids???

But if it was written to and for the Church at Rome, its message would be for Christians only, and IF the Epistle is indeed pastoral, and the ancient Church did and does consider it pastoral, then it was written to address NEEDS in the Church at Rome.

And we know that one of the needs was the conflict between two kinds of believers, the Jewish Christians who established the Faith of Christ on earth, and the Johnny-come-lately Gentile converts to the Faith, most of whom entered through Paul's efforts...

The conflict involved the perception by the founders of the Faith that Christ, being a Jew and preaching only to the Jews, intended His Faith to be the Jewish Faith, and that entry into it meant entry through the Mosaic Law of the Jews...

Paul's job was to wean the Church of Her Mother, Judaism and the Levitical Laws of the Jews, which had been a good Nanny that Christ should enter the world through the Jews, but now, after His departure, had become a hindrance, and the old toys of the childhood of the Faith, needed to be set aside, and the Faith needed to mature into adulthood...

So that the observable actions, which are the only ones enforcable by Law, which comprised the righteousness of the Jews, and were actions anyone could take on his own power and volition, were set aside in favor of the actions of Grace, against which there is no law... And the obedience to the Levitical Law was replaced by obedience to "Those having the Rule OVER YOU" in an enterprise known as putting the Old Man of Sin to death by the mortification [deadening] of one's own members in one's own flesh. A long and painful process known as taking up one's own cross AFTER an initial denial of self...

This internal self-denial is to be masked and hidden... Fasting is masked by cheerfulness and wearing nice clothes, for instance... We are to be hidden in Christ, and directed by experience elders, even young ones like Timothy... So that inward obedience to Christ replaces outward obedience to the Law of Moses... And the righteousness of the Christian thereby exceeds that of the Jew, for the inside of the cup is cleansed.

And the Jews as a People of Faith KNEW they NEEDED this, which is why they flocked to John the Baptist for REPENTANCE and Baptism... But John could only give them the Baptism of Repentance, and the Prophetic words that "One is Coming of Whom I am unworthy to even untie His sandals..." Whose Baptism John sought, and Whose Baptism John gave, that we who follow Him, should be so baptized and should therein find all righteousness fulfilled...

So the outward Faith of the Jews, their Nanny the Law, became the inward Faith of Christ, their Father...

Arsenios

 

[StanJ]

Will you pray for me?

A.

I did, and will try to remember to.

 

[StanJ]

First the sentence structure:
διδασκοντες αυτους τηρειν παντα
teaching them to be observing ALL...
οσα ενετειλαμην υμιν
as much as I have commanded to you to be doing
So when we go to τηρειν, which is a present ongoing active infinitive of continuous action, I found this as its primary meaning, with 5 more that derive from this one:
to attend to carefully, take care of
Pentecost, for instance... Did Christ command His Apostles to attend carefully to this day? Was this day a day of observance for the early Church?
Paul seems to confirm that it was, in Acts 20:16 and in 1 Cor 16:8.
And one can name a large number of things that the early Churches carefully attended to in all places where there was a Church, and which continue even to this present day and hour...
So that we can derive from this pattern of Church practices that are universal, an idea of what a large number of the Commandments of Christ WERE to His Apostles... Christ commanded His Apostles to GO and to DISCIPLE the ethnoi... He did not command them to write the New Testament Bible and pass out copies to interested by-standers...
Do you have any other way, directly from the Bible, that we can KNOW exactly WHAT all these commandments were?
And if they were handed from Christ to the Apostles for us, do they then NOT fall under the hubris of secular humanism?

First of all let's stick to properly rendered modern English translations and not use Greek to try and distort the English that HAS been correctly translated already, unless you have evidence that it has NOT been?

I think Peter put it succinctly and I would ask you do as well.

2 Peter 3:14-16 (NIV)

 

[Interplanner]

Did the person who asked this question have an issue that was from a background in Judaism?

The correct answer, between unbelievers and believers, is that it sometimes speaks to each, and makes a direct appeal to unbelievers to become believers. Sometimes those people have a background in Judaism, and it is not helping.

But in the most immediate sense, dealing with the realities at hand, the returning Jewish believers were surprised that the non-Jewish could have grown as strong as they had.

 

[Arsenios]

I did, and will try to remember to.

Thank-you...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

First of all let's stick to properly rendered modern English translations and not use Greek to try and distort the English that HAS been correctly translated already, unless you have evidence that it has NOT been?

The gloss "observe" is a weak derivative of the primary meaning of the word τηρειν... Properly understood, it works, but the proper understanding comes from a word-study of the Greek term, and this does not entail insisting that it is the sum of its roots and their meanings, as some might have us believe, but instead means taking the primary meaning, in the face of a translation that utilizes a lesser (eg derived) gloss...

The primary text is the Greek, and not the modern English translations OF the Greek, yes? The distortion does not come from the primary meanings of Greek terms, but from their translations into English that come up short in their grasp of the Greek...

I think Peter put it succinctly and I would ask you do as well.

2 Peter 3:14-16 (NIV)

I think he did too, and would ask you to do the same...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The correct answer, between unbelievers and believers, is that it sometimes speaks to each, and makes a direct appeal to unbelievers to become believers. Sometimes those people have a background in Judaism, and it is not helping.

But in the most immediate sense, dealing with the realities at hand, the returning Jewish believers were surprised that the non-Jewish could have grown as strong as they had.

Paul tells us to whom he is writing... He spells it out carefully:

Rom 1:7
To all that be in Rome,
beloved of God,
called to be Saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father,
and the Lord Jesus Christ.


So clearly it is to all in Rome who are beloved of God and called to be Saints.

Rom 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all,
that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

And he repeats the ALL, now that we know who these are, and tells them that their faith is spoken throughout the world...

These are clearly believers, and none other than believers, whether Jews or Gentiles...

Arsenios

 

[StanJ]

The gloss "observe" is a weak derivative of the primary meaning of the word τηρειν... Properly understood, it works, but the proper understanding comes from a word-study of the Greek term, and this does not entail insisting that it is the sum of its roots and their meanings, as some might have us believe, but instead means taking the primary meaning, in the face of a translation that utilizes a lesser (eg derived) gloss...

The primary text is the Greek, and not the modern English translations OF the Greek, yes? The distortion does not come from the primary meanings of Greek terms, but from their translations into English that come up short in their grasp of the Greek...

Again, YOUR opinion, with which I do NOT concur, so unless you can show you are more qualified or better credentialed than those who actually worked on the NIV or NASB translation, what I renders is fully accurate and apropos.

Yes the Greek is the primary text, but you seem to think only your observations of what it should be in English are the only ones valid, and I'm telling you that YOU are wrong.

 

[Arsenios]

Again, YOUR opinion, with which I do NOT concur, so unless you can show you are more qualified or better credentialed than those who actually worked on the NIV or NASB translation, what I renders is fully accurate and apropos.

Yes the Greek is the primary text, but you seem to think only your observations of what it should be in English are the only ones valid, and I'm telling you that YOU are wrong.

If you will not be corrected by the Greek, and especially by MY representation of it, simply go to the Strong's number and look it up there and do the word study... Most English translations are exegetically biased and thereby can miss what is clearly written in the Greek.

That is why a Word Study is a good idea...

The exegetical biases of the Orthodox are different from those of all western Bible translation committees...

Strongs Number for τηρέω is 5083, and shows up as this:


5083 τηρέω
KJV: hold fast, observe, watch, reserve, keep, preserve, keeper
NAS: heed, kept, watching over, held in custody, guard, keeps, keep, keep watch over, preserve, guards, preserved, heeds, kept in custody, keeping guard over, observe, continue, keeping, reserved
tēréō tay-reh'-o

And Thayers has the Greek thus:

I have highlighted the primary meaning(s)
The rest are derived from it...

to attend to carefully, take care of

to guard
metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
to observe
to reserve: to undergo something

Arsenios

 

[StanJ]

If you will not be corrected by the Greek, and especially by MY representation of it, simply go to the Strong's number and look it up there and do the word study... Most English translations are exegetically biased and thereby can miss what is clearly written in the Greek.
That is why a Word Study is a good idea...
The exegetical biases of the Orthodox are different from those of all western Bible translation committees...
Strongs Number for τηρέω is 5083, and shows up as this:
5083 τηρέω
KJV: hold fast, observe, watch, reserve, keep, preserve, keeper
NAS: heed, kept, watching over, held in custody, guard, keeps, keep, keep watch over, preserve, guards, preserved, heeds, kept in custody, keeping guard over, observe, continue, keeping, reserved
tēréō tay-reh'-o
And Thayers has the Greek thus:
I have highlighted the primary meaning(s)
The rest are derived from it...
to attend to carefully, take care of
to guard
metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
to observe
to reserve: to undergo something
Arsenios

You actually have to SHOW bias Arsenios, not just claim it.
Proper hermeneutical exegesis is NOT bias, eisegesis is.
At this point there's no use going on with you as you obviously will not admit to your lack of understanding nor your negative comments regarding properly rendered English by ACTUAL credentialed scholars.

 

[Arsenios]

You actually have to SHOW bias Arsenios, not just claim it.
Proper hermeneutical exegesis is NOT bias, eisegesis is.
At this point there's no use going on with you as you obviously will not admit to your lack of understanding nor your negative comments regarding properly rendered English by ACTUAL credentialed scholars.

How many of your so-called "Credentialed Scholars" can speak the Greek the translate?
How many of them can think in that language?

Scholarship is not the basis for proper translation...
Unless you are a Latin Catholic Scholastic...
Or a Protestant neo-Scholastic...

For the Orthodox, the living of an Orthodox Patristic Life in Christ as a bi-lingual Greek and English speaker is a fair basis for a proper translation...

But if you do not want to look at it, OK...

We do not have to pursue the meaning of the Greek...

I had hoped it might help...

Arsenios

 

[StanJ]

How many of your so-called "Credentialed Scholars" can speak the Greek the translate?
How many of them can think in that language?
Scholarship is not the basis for proper translation...
Unless you are a Latin Catholic Scholastic...
Or a Protestant neo-Scholastic...
For the Orthodox, the living of an Orthodox Patristic Life in Christ as a bi-lingual Greek and English speaker is a fair basis for a proper translation...
But if you do not want to look at it, OK...
We do not have to pursue the meaning of the Greek...
I had hoped it might help...
Arsenios

I'm not credential in French and yet I can speak it fluently, so yes I would say scholars with doctorates in Greek, can also speak and think in Greek.
Can YOU?
Your bias seems to be based on your environment on NOT on facts.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not credential in French and yet I can speak it fluently,
so yes I would say scholars with doctorates in Greek, can also speak and think in Greek.

I have had conversations with a lot of them, and they are only fluent in written Koine Greek as a general rule... And in this as a function of their particular confessional education...

Can YOU?

Absolutely not...

My only claim is to embrace Orthodox translations that proceed from the phronema of the Orthodox Faith... In word studies, I seek to embrace the basic meaning of the term in question, and then read Patristic commentary on it, and then see what glosses help to illumine, and what glosses obscure, the meaning of the text.

But the basic meaning of the Greek term is essential, because this is the Koine Greek of many different tongues, so that local idioms are pretty much ruled out, with notable exceptions...

One that comes to mind is how full the house was where Jesus was speaking and the paralytic was lowered into the house through a hole cut in the roof. Carl Conrad and his crowd were struggling on how to interpret "τα προς την θυραν" - Literally "the towards the door"... And we were flip-flopping all over the place trying to nail down a decent gloss for this Greek term, and speculations were ranging far and wide, until a Greek guy posting from South America popped in on the conversation after several weeks and said:

"Oh - This simply means 'the porch'..."

Your bias seems to be based on your environment
on NOT on facts.

ALL translations will be based on one's own frame of reference...
The issue is in how we resolve differences when two worlds intersect...

IF
Your world resolves to Protestant Church scholar consensus...
And mine to Patristic commentaries...
THEN
Perhaps we can find common ground in the Greek meanings in that language...

Now granted, most of the Patristic commentaries ARE in Greek, so this does weight the scale in my favor, I suppose... But I have seen JW scholars fight me tooth and nail for THEIR understandings based on THEIR understanding of the Greek - They love the term "semantic range"... It helps justify off-center interpretations...

But the point is that I care about the meaning of the Greek, and one's theology will of course impact one's translation of the Greek, and the only way I know to resolve such a difference is to go TO the Greek and approach it in basic terms... Otherwise we end up here where we are, with you arguing your authorities, and I mine...

Arsenios

 

[StanJ]

My only claim is to embrace Orthodox translations that proceed from the phronema of the Orthodox Faith... In word studies, I seek to embrace the basic meaning of the term in question, and then read Patristic commentary on it, and then see what glosses help to illumine, and what glosses obscure, the meaning of the text.

But the basic meaning of the Greek term is essential, because this is the Koine Greek of many different tongues, so that local idioms are pretty much ruled out, with notable exceptions...

IF
Your world resolves to Protestant Church scholar consensus...
And mine to Patristic commentaries...
THEN
Perhaps we can find common ground in the Greek meanings in that language...

Now granted, most of the Patristic commentaries ARE in Greek, so this does weight the scale in my favor, I suppose... But I have seen JW scholars fight me tooth and nail for THEIR understandings based on THEIR understanding of the Greek - They love the term "semantic range"... It helps justify off-center interpretations...

But the point is that I care about the meaning of the Greek, and one's theology will of course impact one's translation of the Greek, and the only way I know to resolve such a difference is to go TO the Greek and approach it in basic terms... Otherwise we end up here where we are, with you arguing your authorities, and I mine...

Well then if this IS the case, then why do you suppose the New American Bible translates it the same way as the NIV?
"teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."