Gentile converts had the same law.

[CherubRam]

Right! If Christ kept a law, and went to the trouble of mentioning which law He kept in the writings of the NT, then I believe we ought to keep that law.

He kept the Sabbath so we ought to too.

Matthew 19:17
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

 

[aikido7]

Our salvation is not unconditional.

The God of Jesus was unconditional and salvation comes from God. Just in my opinion and interpretation.

If grace comes with conditions, then it is certainly not grace.

And if salvation comes with conditions, then it is not done out of love.

The only condition God requires is to be forgiving and have repentance.
This is the way of Jesus. A required condition of a blood sacrifice was not needed.

 

[aikido7]

When a traffic officer lets you off with a warning instead of a speeding ticket, is he extending grace to encourage you to go and sin some more?

I don't understand the metaphor you are using. I guess I am too tired right now. I have trouble equating Jesus or God as a policeman. But I am sure there is a connection you have made that can teach me something new.

I guess I can say that I am given warnings after every sin and I am continually forgiven by God's grace and love. And hopefully I am evolving.

 

[iouae]

The God of Jesus was unconditional and salvation comes from God. Just in my opinion and interpretation.

If grace comes with conditions, then it is certainly not grace.

And if salvation comes with conditions, then it is not done out of love.

The only condition God requires is to be forgiving and have repentance.
This is the way of Jesus. A required condition of a blood sacrifice was not needed.

EVERYTHING that God says, does or gives, including grace, comes with conditions. Like the woman caught in adultery was told "Neither do I condemn thee" but here, with the grace, comes the condition "Go and sin no more".

 

[Ben Masada]

Matthew 19:17
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

That's a message for all Christians who contend that the Law was abolished on the cross, (Ephes. 2:15) or Jesus was the end of the Law, (Rom. 10:4) or that there was a change of the Law.(Heb. 7:12)

 

[Ben Masada]

Grace: The free and unmerited favor of God. Grace does not mean the law has been done away with.

Very good CherubRam! Grace rather means the medium by which the Law was given. Had not the Law been given, we would not be able to live in society but in a jungle state of disorder. We all must praise the Lord for His grace in giving us the Law.

 

[CherubRam]

That's a message for all Christians who contend that the Law was abolished on the cross, (Ephes. 2:15) or Jesus was the end of the Law, (Rom. 10:4) or that there was a change of the Law.(Heb. 7:12)

The New Covenant did bring a change in the law. The commands that were not done away with, was the Sabbath, and moral commands of God. Scriptures state that God removed the sacrifices and festivals, along with the old priesthood. It says so in the Old Testament.

 

[Danoh]

The New Covenant did bring a change in the law. The commands that were not done away with, was the Sabbath, and moral commands of God. Scriptures state that God removed the sacrifices and festivals, along with the old priesthood. It says so in the Old Testament.

Paul's writing in Romans 6: 14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" is based on the fact of a different system of acceptance before God, this side of the Cross, that has replaced the Law's "if/then" Performance Based Acceptance, Ex. 19:5.

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Rom. 3:21, 22

Things have gone from "the law for righteousness" to acceptance with God "because of righteousness" Rom. 8:10.

Romans 10:

1. Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 5:

21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[CherubRam]

Paul's writing in Romans 6: 14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" is based on the fact of a different system of acceptance before God, this side of the Cross, that has replaced the Law's "if/then" Performance Based Acceptance, Ex. 19:5.

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Rom. 3:21, 22

Things have gone from "the law for righteousness" to acceptance with God "because of righteousness" Rom. 8:10.

Romans 10:

1. Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 5:

21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hostility towards the laws of God is what has been abolished.

Christians often refer to Ephesians 2:15 in the N.I.V. as proof that the commandments have been done away with.

Ephesians 2:15 N.I.V.: by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Ephesians 2:15 King James. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;.

Note:The word [enmity] in the K.J. means hostility.

(Ephesians 2:15 (a modern translation.) by abolishing in his flesh the hostility of the law with its commandments and regulations.

Romans 10:4
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
4 For Christ is the [goal / end[a] of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Footnotes: a. Romans 10:4 Or goal

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

 

[Wick Stick]

Ok, I'm buying what you're selling, mostly. Check and see if this fits what you're saying:

1) There was/is the covenant that God created between Himself and Abraham, and afterwards confirmed to Isaac and Israel.

2) A mediator for the covenant was subsequently established (the Levitical priesthood), because Israel broke the terms of the covenant.

3) The Levites mediated between God and Israel through a system in which the penalties and debt for transgressing the covenant were transferred onto animals (which were sacrificed/exiled), thence to the priests (who ate the animals, and functioned as living sacrifices), thence to the high priest (more sacrifices), and then yearly on the Day of Atonement taken directly to God.

4) The Israelites abused the system of mediation by using it as a "get out of jail free card" and the priests became corrupt and encouraged this behavior for the purpose of their personal financial gain.

5) God did away with the Levitical priesthood (and all associated sacrifices and rituals) due to the abuses.

6) God appointed a different mediator for the covenant, from a different priesthood, who offered a unique one-time sacrifice sufficient to pay the debt of transgression and continues to function as the reconciler of the parties to the covenant.

How'd I do?

 

[Ben Masada]

The New Covenant did bring a change in the law. The commands that were not done away with, was the Sabbath, and moral commands of God. Scriptures state that God removed the sacrifices and festivals, along with the old priesthood. It says so in the Old Testament.

You are totally wrong because the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah if you read Jer. 31:31. Nothing to do with the Gentiles. You must be referring to the NT aka the gospel of Paul. When I speak about the Law, I mean the Decalogue. BTW, if you read Rom. 7:1-7, Paul was also referring to the Decalogue. The text is about an allegory of freedom that the widow enjoys when her husband dies. The same, in the case of Paul, he was referring to freedom from the Law aka the Decalogue with the death of Jesus. If you read verse 7 again, where is it written "Thou shall not covet" if not in the Decalogue? That's the Law that ended in Jesus according to Paul. (Rom. 10:4)

 

[Ben Masada]

Ok, I'm buying what you're selling, mostly. Check and see if this fits what you're saying:

1) There was/is the covenant that God created between Himself and Abraham, and afterwards confirmed to Isaac and Israel.

2) A mediator for the covenant was subsequently established (the Levitical priesthood), because Israel broke the terms of the covenant.

3) The Levites mediated between God and Israel through a system in which the penalties and debt for transgressing the covenant were transferred onto animals (which were sacrificed/exiled), thence to the priests (who ate the animals, and functioned as living sacrifices), thence to the high priest (more sacrifices), and then yearly on the Day of Atonement taken directly to God.

4) The Israelites abused the system of mediation by using it as a "get out of jail free card" and the priests became corrupt and encouraged this behavior for the purpose of their personal financial gain.

5) God did away with the Levitical priesthood (and all associated sacrifices and rituals) due to the abuses.

6) God appointed a different mediator for the covenant, from a different priesthood, who offered a unique one-time sacrifice sufficient to pay the debt of transgression and continues to function as the reconciler of the parties to the covenant.

How'd I do?

Good! At least you do well when handling Christian preconceived notions. And like any other Christian, you too don't have a quote from the Tanach to document what you say about God's appointment of a different mediator for the Covenant between God and Israel. Then, nothing about the change of mind in God to allow a human sacrifice for the sins of the People when He had commanded His own Prophets to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; and Ezek. 18:20) Nu!

 

[aikido7]

You were there I take it?

Back in your cocoon. There lies happiness and blessed peace....

 

[aikido7]

EVERYTHING that God says, does or gives, including grace, comes with conditions. Like the woman caught in adultery was told "Neither do I condemn thee" but here, with the grace, comes the condition "Go and sin no more".

The only "condition" Jesus seems to mention is to approach the God of mercy with repentance and a contrite heart.

No bloody sacrifice needed.

"Your faith has saved you."
He sure wasn't talking about Easter faith.

 

[aikido7]

When a traffic officer lets you off with a warning instead of a speeding ticket, is he extending grace to encourage you to go and sin some more?

Sinning or not is always up to us. If we still want to sin after what Jesus or a policeman tells us, it is up to us.

God gave us free will and declared Creation "good." A number of times, if I remember right.

 

[aikido7]

EVERYTHING that God says, does or gives, including grace, comes with conditions. Like the woman caught in adultery was told "Neither do I condemn thee" but here, with the grace, comes the condition "Go and sin no more".

He did not say this or offer this after the crucifixion.

Salvation is always about transformation in this life.

Jesus offered and granted salvation to many before he was killed on a Roman cross.

Didn't he?

 

[aikido7]

A7, You're such a a "faithful" unbeliever! I like that about you. One "Neg-rep"
coming up!

I would never give anyone a negative rep just because they are unaware of history or have different beliefs. But hey, that's just what I learn from Jesus. You very well know I am disappointed that slaves of the Devil like myself cannot give you a green little box to communicate some positive regard.

I know you are doing the best you can here with the information and beliefs you have.

If you are going to save up some little red squares for me, would you mind using PlayDough? I still like the smell.

 

[CherubRam]

You are totally wrong because the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah if you read Jer. 31:31. Nothing to do with the Gentiles. You must be referring to the NT aka the gospel of Paul. When I speak about the Law, I mean the Decalogue. BTW, if you read Rom. 7:1-7, Paul was also referring to the Decalogue. The text is about an allegory of freedom that the widow enjoys when her husband dies. The same, in the case of Paul, he was referring to freedom from the Law aka the Decalogue with the death of Jesus. If you read verse 7 again, where is it written "Thou shall not covet" if not in the Decalogue? That's the Law that ended in Jesus according to Paul. (Rom. 10:4)

The words "Judah" and "Israel" are often used as a parable to mean "faithful" and "nation." By the way, there is lots of scriptures about Gentiles becoming also the people of God. I have never seen such a great multitude of errors. You should not be teaching what the bible says.

 

[Wick Stick]

And like any other Christian, you too don't have a quote from the Tanach to document what you say about God's appointment of a different mediator for the Covenant between God and Israel.

Do you agree that God set aside the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system due to abuse of the system? :think: While that certainly finds expression in the prophets (e.g. Amos 5:21), it isn't accepted by any Jews I have met to date.

As for the appointment of a new mediator, you may have some trouble finding the English word "mediator," as most translators seem to have rendered the Hebrew word (YKCh, H3198) as "reprover" or "rebuke." They are the same thing, though, and you can find this word throughout the writings of the prophets. Isa 2:4, since you want an example.

[rant]When the New Testament was written, the writers closely followed the usage of the LXX in determining which Greek words to use for inherently Hebrew words and concepts. It would be nice if the guys translating into English had put their heads together and made it so that the same English word used in the OT, was also used in the NT for the same idea. Alas, it is not so, and the NT has suffered from mis-interpretation ever since.[/rant]

Then, nothing about the change of mind in God to allow a human sacrifice for the sins of the People when He had commanded His own Prophets to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; and Ezek. 18:20) Nu!

We already had this discussion. "A man cannot die for the sins of another" is a faulty conclusion based on what is written.

A correct conclusion is "a man cannot die for his own sins, and also the sins of another." Plug in a man without sin to that equation, and you get a different result.

Jarrod

 

[Elia]

Joshua copied the laws of Moses onto stone also.

Bs"d

And that in 70 languages.

In regards to "Ministry of The Spirit." What that means is that you keep God's commandments, not because they are written in stone and are law, but because they are written in your heart; and you keep them for the love of God and your fellow man, because it is the right thing to do.

As we all know; there is not a single Christian who does the law.

"The ministry that brought death" is the Mosaic laws of the priesthood, not God's commandments.

What is commonly called "the Mosaic law" is not the law of Moses, but the law of God.

Some examples: " Again Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 38 “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. 39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of Y-H-W-H and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, 40 and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God. 41 I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am Y-H-W-H your God.”
Numbers 15

Another example:

"Now Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat."
Lev 11

"And Y-H-W-H spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of Y-H-W-H, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Passover of Y-H-W-H. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to Y-H-W-H; seven days you must eat unleavened bread."
Lev 23

As everybody can see, this is not the law of Moses, but the law of God.

Only because it is given through Moses is it called "Mosaic law", but it is GODs law.

And Gods laws stand forever.

Note: The commandments were written in stone. There are two sets of laws, God's commandment laws, and the priestly Levitical law. The Levitical laws brought death to those who would not keep the laws.

There is only ONE set of laws, and that is Gods laws.

And for those who transgress Gods laws punishment awaits.
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