General question for all TOL religious people

[Tattooed Theist]

[MENTION=18643]Tattooed Theist[/MENTION]

So who have you put in authority over yourself? No names, just a job description.

No names? Just a job description? I'm unsure what you want from me...

 

[Tattooed Theist]

Acts 18:2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:2) And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla;(because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

​

Acts 18:26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. ​

THEY (the HUSBAND and HIS wife) took him UNTO THEM and expounded.

This is NOT a woman in charge of publicly teaching men.

So a woman can teach as long as her husband is present?
Please back that up with scripture...

Youre trying to split hairs that aren't there man.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

You think? Then, you're offering your opinion only, right?

Yup. It is just my opinion that when the author of Hebrews refers to those he/she is writing to as those who "have become partakers of Christ" (other translations read that as "in Christ")....that means the author is writing to Christians.

And what was your position again? Wasn't it that since the book is called "Hebrews" it is meant for Jews only?

And that is only offering your opinion, right?

Well, since when are Jews referred to as those who "partake of Christ" or are "in Christ"?

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

As a mid-Acts dispensationalist,

Hey Musterion,

Sorry. Got over-busy. So I will start by admitting that I've seen quite a few posts about mid-Acts disp. on this forum. It seems some for and some against. But I know very little about it and haven't read very many of them.

I believe the miraculous sign gifts seen in Acts and described by Paul in his letters to the Corinthians -- primarily intended as a witness against unrepentant Israel -- have been deactivated. All of them.

It sounds like an in-depth subject to me so I don't know how this will go just via these posts. But my first question would be: Why?

Why do you believe all the gifts have been deactivated? I don't think I've ever read a biblical passage that says something like that. But I'm sure you know your bible better than me. Does the bible say that somewhere?

That also includes the "ministry gifts" he lists elsewhere. I believe God is no longer "calling" anyone into any kind of ministry or anything else whatsoever.

I am assuming you mean like church leaders here by "ministry gifts"? Is there biblical support to believe that?

That was a function in the founding of the early church which as such basically disintegrated and ceased to exist before Paul died,

I agree. That is how the early Church was begun. But how do we know it ceased to exist before Paul died? Does the bible say that somewhere?

what with all in Asia having abandoned him and his doctrine.

The bible nowhere says (that I can see) that they abandoned his doctrine. Does it say that somewhere or did you just insert that in there? They abandoned Paul through fear of persecution.

Also, It seems like Paul was pretty effective in preaching the Gospel in Asia:

"Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands." (Acts 19:26).

Those who made idols wanted to get rid of Paul because he was convincing so many people to turn away from them. He must have been effective.

And I don't think the "Asia" referred to here was the continent of Asia as we call it today.

At that time, I think "Asia" referred to a province of the Roman empire which was located in what is today southern Turkey. One of the main cities in that province was Ephesus where Timothy was the bishop.

That means believers today are considered full-grown, adult children of God, not spiritual children in need of pastoring, much less sheep in need of shepherding.

What? Because many Christians in the province of Asia showed themselves to be cowards when Paul was arrested and maybe even fell away from the Faith, that means believers today are not in need of pastoring or shepherding? How does that follow? That doesn't make sense.

Maturity comes in God's time to each individual and can certainly be influenced by other believers but is not dependent upon other believers.

Ok.

For these reasons,

I think the only reasons you have stated are:

1. that there were cowardly Christians in Asia who didn't support Paul and maybe fell away from the Faith,

2. You believe that all gifts ended, including leadership gifts, before Paul died.

I agree with your first reason, but you've offered me no scriptural reason to believe the second reason.

And your conclusion is quite a stretch from the reasons you've stated. I don't see biblical support for that.

I believe there is no human individual who has God-given spiritual authority over the soul, faith or walk of any other believer today.

I don't see any biblical evidence that the points I stated in post #26 (I think)were a temporary situation. And I don't see any biblical evidence that states that the Church that Jesus established, who He gave His authority to, who He sent to teach all the nations, and who He promised to be with....well, I don't see any biblical reason to believe that situation changed.

Unless you can provide some biblical evidence, your reasons are really just your reasons. Why should I believe the gifts ended and leadership has ended? The bible doesn't say that. The bible shows the Church commissioned by Jesus to pass on the Faith throughout the ages.

Each stands or falls before His own Master.

Agreed.

During apostolic times such human authorities were in place, but no longer.

That is a claim that I could believe if you can prove it with Scripture.

But I won't believe that just because you say it. What Scriptures say that?

That's my belief on the matter. A few mid-Acts disps here on TOL agree with it but I don't think all do. And that's okay.

Thanks for your thoughts. I haven't heard of much of that.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

But how do we know it ceased to exist before Paul died? Does the bible say that somewhere?

Jesus said his assembly of firstborn would not die out.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Correct. Since such authority would presumably also be over me and everyone else, the onus is on you to show we who don't see it (a) who and where it is today, and (b) how you know that is the authority God wants all believers in subjection to.

You have the mic.

Well, I think we have two onus's out there.

It is pretty clear from Scripture that Jesus established a Church, gave it His authority, and charged it with teaching all the nations all that He commanded them. He also promised to be with it throughout the ages. Well, you can't teach the nations unless you have the authority to do so.

You believe that situation changed before the death of Paul. I think the onus is on you to show why that is true. The reasons you stated in a different post are not scriptural and are not convincing or even logical.

As far as your question above. I think it is up to each believer to find Christ's Church.

Speaking for myself, if Jesus established a Church, that is the one I want to belong to.

If I take a little walk backwards through time I find out that:

I can't belong to Calvary Chapel....I don't think they existed prior to 1964.
I can't be Methodist....that church wasn't there in 1700.
I can't be Lutheran....that church wasn't there in 1500.
I can't belong....

well, you get the idea. I'm looking for a church that was started by Jesus in the 1st century and has existed since then.

Historically, it is pretty easy to narrow it down to Catholic or Orthodox.

I am Catholic.

My reasons are scriptural (see post #26). I see no reason to believe that Jesus' has failed to be with and protect His Church. I see no reason to believe that I should belong to a Church that was started by some man or woman a thousand years or more after He started His.

That's where I am at. Jesus made a Church, it is still here, and His leaders still have the authority through Apostolic succession.

God bless.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

There's the problem right there.

The church is not a military structure where there is rank.

Nobody said it was.

Jesus did not give authority for anyone to rule over another,

What do you think He means by Luke 10:16 then? "The one who listens to you listens to me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Jesus did not say we must serve multiple masters and teachers and obey whatever they tell us to do.

No. I agree.

But He did establish teachers with His authority. Luke 10:16 shows that. So does the Great Commission Matthew 28: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Now how can they teach if they have no authority? I don't think they can. They can make nice suggestions, I suppose but nobody has to listen to them because they have no authority.

Church leaders are to shepherd Christ's people and protect them from wolves, especially wolves that can be mistaken for sheep.

Amen. That is one of their roles.

In Revelation 2:6 NET Jesus says, "But you do have this going for you: You hate what the Nicolaitans practice - practices I also hate."

And again in verse 15 he says, "In the same way, there are also some among you who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans."

Just because some teachers include heresy doesn't mean all do.

Geez, what am I suppose to do if I a one of the millions of people throughout human history...even as late as the 20th or 21st century who are illiterate? Am I just not allowed to be a Christian because I can't read the Bible for myself and there is nobody to teach me?

Don't do it, don't allow anyone or anything over you spiritually other than Jesus Christ and our Father's word.

Having leadership in the Church and teachers is part of God's plan: " And God has placed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, gifts of healing, helps, gifts of leadership, different kinds of tongues." (1 Cor. 12:28)


And it is a good thing too, because if I can't read how am I suppose to access God's Word? And before the printing press came about bibles were very rare so most people didn't have one so how were they to access God's word?

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Jesus said his assembly of firstborn would not die out.

Hey Jamie,

??I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you are saying here. What Scripture are you referring to? And are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Peace.

 

[jamie]

Now how can they teach if they have no authority?

The authority is in the scriptures, not a person. Some teachers are good teachers, some teachers are false teachers. How can we tell the difference? What if I told you there are some false teachers on TOL?

Paul said to prove what a person teaches is true and commended the Berean congregation for doing so.

Acts 17:11 NET These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.​

Jesus said that even his elect will be deceived if possible. (Matthew 24:24 NET)

 

[jamie]

??I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you are saying here. What Scripture are you referring to? And are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

In Matthew 16:18 NET Jesus said, "And I tell you that you are peter..."

The word "peter" in Hebrew means firstborn.

In Hebrews 12:22-23 NET it is written, "But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect...

1Corinthians 15:22-23 NET For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.​

The firstborn are those in the first resurrection.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yup. It is just my opinion that when the author of Hebrews refers to those he/she is writing to as those who "have become partakers of Christ" (other translations read that as "in Christ")....that means the author is writing to Christians.

And what was your position again? Wasn't it that since the book is called "Hebrews" it is meant for Jews only?

And that is only offering your opinion, right?

Well, since when are Jews referred to as those who "partake of Christ" or are "in Christ"?

Peace.

Peter and the other Apostles preached The Kingdom Gospel to the House of Israel only. They preached: Faith in Christ plus works. Whereas, The Apostle Paul preached The Grace Gospel to the Gentiles which included : Faith without works. Therein, lies the difference.

 

[Right Divider]

So a woman can teach as long as her husband is present?
Please back that up with scripture...

Youre trying to split hairs that aren't there man.

You're the one trying to prove something that is not there. Those scriptures do NOT say the Priscilla was doing the teaching (and publicly at that).

THEY took him aside. THEY and not her.

Absolutely not.

Priscilla was teaching men in Ephesus.

This was the claim that YOU made. It is a FALSE claim based on the scripture that you quoted to support it.

 

[Zeke]

As a mid-Acts dispensationalist, I believe the miraculous sign gifts seen in Acts and described by Paul in his letters to the Corinthians -- primarily intended as a witness against unrepentant Israel -- have been deactivated. All of them. That also includes the "ministry gifts" he lists elsewhere. I believe God is no longer "calling" anyone into any kind of ministry or anything else whatsoever. That was a function in the founding of the early church which as such basically disintegrated and ceased to exist before Paul died, what with all in Asia having abandoned him and his doctrine.

That means believers today are considered full-grown, adult children of God, not spiritual children in need of pastoring, much less sheep in need of shepherding. Maturity comes in God's time to each individual and can certainly be influenced by other believers but is not dependent upon other believers.

For these reasons, I believe there is no human individual who has God-given spiritual authority over the soul, faith or walk of any other believer today. Each stands or falls before His own Master. During apostolic times such human authorities were in place, but no longer.

That's my belief on the matter. A few mid-Acts disps here on TOL agree with it but I don't think all do. And that's okay.

Whats in you're wallet? that will show who you really bow the knee to. If you are going to play the dispentaional game of following the letter you need to proceed onto Acts 28, where it is written Paul was teaching Israels hope and the sure mercies of David, even ole Abraham new the tale Galatians 3:8. And yep those outward signs never did happen seeing the kingdom is within which is where you meet Christ.

 

[nikolai_42]

Who was that addressed to?

In light of followup conversation (and the dispensationalist flavor accompanying it), my answer is it was addressed to the body of Christ - be they Hebrew or not:

We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Hebrews 13:10-13

And if there is any doubt as to whether this is secular rulership or not, the following passage earlier in the same chapter is pretty clear :

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:7-8

Again...this is the body of Christ, not some specific subset of that body.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I Corinthians 12:12-13

Again, though, I would say one needs to make a distinction between ruling over someone and ruling over someone's faith. There is a world of difference (as evidenced by the nature of faith in institutions such as the Roman Catholic Church.)

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2 Corinthians 1:24

 

[KingdomRose]

If there is a living human on earth who you believe has spiritual authority* over you, who is that person?

*meaning it's God's will for you to somehow be under them or answerable to them; they likewise will ultimately answer to God for how they exercised their authority over you.

Yes, and they will answer to God. He has always had an earthly organization. His people answered to Moses, and then Joshua, and then a line of judges. Jehovah would communicate with these men and they would instruct the people on what God had said. Today Jehovah doesn't audibly communicate with any man, nor does He cause men to have dreams or visions. But there ARE men today who take the lead in directing God's organization (who are called "The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses"), always deferring to Jesus Christ as THEIR Leader, as the Apostles did in the first century in Jerusalem.

God is not a God of chaos and confusion, but He is a God of peace (I Corinthians 14:33). How can there be order and a lack of confusion with no humans taking the lead in Christ's church? Do you think every Christian can direct himself in an orderly manner in unison with every other Christian? How would that be done?

 

[KingdomRose]

No they don't. Each of us is accountable to God for what we say and do. We can't pass the buck to someone else nor can we say the devil made me do it.

Yes they do. When a child is very young he cannot make any kind of decision as to what he believes.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, and they will answer to God. He has always had an earthly organization. His people answered to Moses, and then Joshua, and then a line of judges. Jehovah would communicate with these men and they would instruct the people on what God had said. Today Jehovah doesn't audibly communicate with any man, nor does He cause men to have dreams or visions. But there ARE men today who take the lead in directing God's organization (who are called "The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses"), always deferring to Jesus Christ as THEIR Leader, as the Apostles did in the first century in Jerusalem.

God is not a God of chaos and confusion, but He is a God of peace (I Corinthians 14:33). How can there be order and a lack of confusion with no humans taking the lead in Christ's church? Do you think every Christian can direct himself in an orderly manner in unison with every other Christian? How would that be done?

Cultists always have cutest and sweetest answers.

Yes, all of the those that you spoke about were the nation of Israel and God is not currently working through them nor your cult.

Join with God's current organization; He calls it the body of Christ.

P.S. To you last question: The Word of God.

 

[KingdomRose]

Jim Jones and Vernon Howell would certainly agree with you.

We don't "obey" the person, we obey God's word if we are convinced their teaching is according to scripture.

No kidding. And no one here has said that the ones in authority that they are "under" can teach anything other than God's Word.

 

[KingdomRose]

Cultists always have cutest and sweetest answers.

Yes, all of the those that you spoke about were the nation of Israel and God is not currently working through them nor your cult.

Join with God's current organization; He calls it the body of Christ.

P.S. To you last question: The Word of God.

Oh indeed? I agree that God's current organization is the body of Christ. Now answer this: Just how does every person who is following the Word of God become UNITED with every other person doing so? They read the Word of God and then what?

 

[Right Divider]

Oh indeed? I agree that God's current organization is the body of Christ. Now answer this: Just how does every person who is following the Word of God become UNITED with every other person doing so? They read the Word of God and then what?

• Not through your cult.
• Read the Word and then believe it.
• Paul says we have unity in the body by sound doctrine.
• Your doctrine is unsound.
• "Oh indeed?" is weird.