ECT Fred's story

musterion

Well-known member
Sinning after believing the gospel is NOT proof that one is unregenerate or non-elect. I don't know where Fred gets this idea from.

From the essentially eradicationist beliefs that many people in the Reformed church (and elsewhere) hold to. That belief, which is false, has been the needless cause of agony for many believers for centuries.

It is NOT true that Calvinists have no assurance.
I'm not about to argue with your feelings, CL. You may feel anything you like - assurance included - but the fact stands that the doctrine of secret double predestination proves you cannot KNOW you are saved. No one can. You can hope and you can believe you are, but you cannot know because you cannot know that you aren't really a deceived reprobate who just hasn't gone belly up yet.

This idea is based off the false presumption that God just elects people independently of their faith in the gospel. By contrast, when God saves a man, he GIVES that man faith in the gospel. No others can believe.
Wrong. ANYONE can appear to believe, for a time or at length, but never be saved. Go look at the thread I started yesterday where Calvin spoke of what can be called temporary grace. Your objection here proves that you (again) don't even realize the full implications of your own doctrinal system.

By contrast, Arminianism gives no assurance because it is based in what the man does in his own heart rather than what Christ ACCOMPLISHED on the cross.
To this day I do not even know for sure what Arminianism actually, correctly means (and I'm not asking you because to your kind it really only means "Anyone who opposes Calvinism"), but my assurance is based 100% on the sacrifice of Christ in my place and God's having given me the very righteousness of His Son. So as far as my assurance goes, I - myself - have nothing to do with, can claim no credit for it, and therefore (I now know) can do nothing to LOSE it.
 

musterion

Well-known member
I suspect the influence of Hyper-Calvinism as well. A.W. Pink wasn't a hyper but he may have been borderline according to some.

I've looked into this a fair bit and am convinced that hyper-Calvinists are in the exact same boat as we alleged "hyper-dispensationalists." That is, we are the ones who seek to be consistent at all points with what we profess to believe, whereas the mainstream majority (nominal Calvinists and Acts 2 dispensationalists) are woefully inconsistent in their thinking and application, as you demonstrate here. I loathe and despise all forms of Calvinism as of Satan, but I'll tip my hat to a hyper-C for at least trying to be consistent with what he says he believes. The rest of you guys are amateurs and clowns compared to them.

Mainstream Calvinism: God punishes the reprobate not just because he hates them, but because they DESERVE punishment.
For what?

The reprobate get no worse than what they deserve.
For what?

God is a just God.
For damning the unbelief of those He intended to be unbelievers, when they do no more than exhibit His eternal will for them by disbelieving? THAT is your definition of just? You're brainwashed if you actually believe that.

But praise God, he has given Christ to suffer on the cross for all who he has chosen, that they might believe in this blessed gospel and be SPARED the punishment they deserve.
Don't you know that, per TULIP, Calvin's elect are essentially saved from eternity past, regenerated BEFORE they believe and therefore are NEVER, at any point of their existence, at the slightest risk of damnation? Else the elective will of the Calvin cult's god might be thwarted by the sovereign will of Man, and you cannot allow that.

CL, you've got a good mind. You really need to think through your Calvinism more deeply than you have.
 
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musterion

Well-known member
By contrast, the false belief known as "universal atonement" does these things. The God of universal atonement cannot be trusted, for he cannot successfully guarantee the redemption of anyone. This false god did everything he could, yet he still failed to redeem the vast majority of humanity. I choose not to worship a god that fails, and I don't understand why anyone would want to.

I see what you did there.

I don't know the god you just described, either.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Was Fred filled with the Holy Spirit as the believers of the book of Acts were, if not, then Fred is not a member of the family of God.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.



Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


LA
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The name is changed. Everything else is true.

Fred had heard, understood, and gratefully believed the Gospel of grace not long before. Fred is also a Calvinist, though he doesn't yet realize it. He's not yet familiar with the finer details of Calvinism - only a general outline in the form of assumptions behind how the Bible is interpreted and taught by the people he knows and trusts. Fred doesn't yet know that what he hears in his church - while not officially Reformed but proudly "nondenominational" - is strongly influenced by a mix of several interpretive views, Covenant and Reformed theology being the primary one.

In the area of sanctification, Fred's church is rather fuzzy-headed. But like any babe in Christ, Fred doesn't know that. He simply believes what he's been told from the pulpit, in small groups and during book studies is what the Bible teaches. So, like any babe, he clings to it. Fred isn't yet mature enough in Christ to think to examine any of the spoonfeedings. Even if it had, he wouldn't know, at this point in his life, where or how to begin.

Yet like the Puritans of old, Fred by nature has always tended to be introspective, overly self-examining and, especially recently, a bit gloomy. What there was no longer any trace of, is joy in the Lord. That is gone.

Something big has been on his mind. The reason, he later learned, is common: not very long after believing the Gospel, Fred noticed the temptation of old sins he'd spent years indulging - sins he now loathed - began to plague him afresh. This just didn't make sense. True, many things were different now. But Fred had been told - guaranteed on the basis of the Word of God - that his old nature had been eradicated when he was saved so that the new, sinless, God-given nature was now all that remained inside of him. Fred's conclusion, naturally, was that he'd no longer feel the familiar pull of those old sins and would walk in complete and wonderful victory. On the occasions he would feel temptations, they (Fred was assured) would be no match for the new nature since the flesh could no longer be energized by the now-dead old nature!

Yet temptations started to come even more often, in raging waves. And sin Fred did. Sure, there were blessed moments of victory over temptation but noticeably fewer and fewer. More often, Fred struggled and fell into the same old behavior patterns he'd lived in for years.

"How can this be?" Fred asked himself, "If my old sin nature is gone, HOW can I still sin? This should not be happening! This should be impossible!"

No one was able to give him an answer that satisfied, that actually worked. All they could do is nod their heads sympathetically. Fred's worries and introspection grew darker, compounded now by a new element that lays upon his mind and soul like a layer of frost: Fred had begun to seriously doubt his salvation.

(continued)

Bump!


Yay, Roy!
 
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