ECT Fred's story

[musterion]

The name is changed. Everything else is true.

Fred had heard, understood, and gratefully believed the Gospel of grace not long before. Fred is also a Calvinist, though he doesn't yet realize it. He's not yet familiar with the finer details of Calvinism - only a general outline in the form of assumptions behind how the Bible is interpreted and taught by the people he knows and trusts. Fred doesn't yet know that what he hears in his church - while not officially Reformed but proudly "nondenominational" - is strongly influenced by a mix of several interpretive views, Covenant and Reformed theology being the primary one.

In the area of sanctification, Fred's church is rather fuzzy-headed. But like any babe in Christ, Fred doesn't know that. He simply believes what he's been told from the pulpit, in small groups and during book studies is what the Bible teaches. So, like any babe, he clings to it. Fred isn't yet mature enough in Christ to think to examine any of the spoonfeedings. Even if it had, he wouldn't know, at this point in his life, where or how to begin.

Yet like the Puritans of old, Fred by nature has always tended to be introspective, overly self-examining and, especially recently, a bit gloomy. What there was no longer any trace of, is joy in the Lord. That is gone.

Something big has been on his mind. The reason, he later learned, is common: not very long after believing the Gospel, Fred noticed the temptation of old sins he'd spent years indulging - sins he now loathed - began to plague him afresh. This just didn't make sense. True, many things were different now. But Fred had been told - guaranteed on the basis of the Word of God - that his old nature had been eradicated when he was saved so that the new, sinless, God-given nature was now all that remained inside of him. Fred's conclusion, naturally, was that he'd no longer feel the familiar pull of those old sins and would walk in complete and wonderful victory. On the occasions he would feel temptations, they (Fred was assured) would be no match for the new nature since the flesh could no longer be energized by the now-dead old nature!

Yet temptations started to come even more often, in raging waves. And sin Fred did. Sure, there were blessed moments of victory over temptation but noticeably fewer and fewer. More often, Fred struggled and fell into the same old behavior patterns he'd lived in for years.

"How can this be?" Fred asked himself, "If my old sin nature is gone, HOW can I still sin? This should not be happening! This should be impossible!"

No one was able to give him an answer that satisfied, that actually worked. All they could do is nod their heads sympathetically. Fred's worries and introspection grew darker, compounded now by a new element that lays upon his mind and soul like a layer of frost: Fred had begun to seriously doubt his salvation.

(continued)

 

[nikolai_42]

Yet like the Puritans of old, Fred by nature has always tended to be introspective, overly self-examining and, especially recently, a bit gloomy. What there was no longer any trace of, is joy in the Lord. That is gone.

Something big has been on his mind. The reason, he later learned, is common: not very long after believing the Gospel, Fred noticed the temptation of old sins he'd spent years indulging - sins he now loathed - began to plague him afresh. This just didn't make sense. True, many things were different now. But Fred had been told - guaranteed on the basis of the Word of God - that his old nature had been eradicated when he was saved so that the new, sinless, God-given nature was now all that remained inside of him. Fred's conclusion, naturally, was that he'd no longer feel the familiar pull of those old sins and would walk in complete and wonderful victory. On the occasions he would feel temptations, they (Fred was assured) would be no match for the new nature since the flesh could no longer be energized by the now-dead old nature!

Yet temptations started to come even more often, in raging waves. And sin Fred did. Sure, there were blessed moments of victory over temptation but noticeably fewer and fewer. More often, Fred struggled and fell into the same old behavior patterns he'd lived in for years.

"How can this be?" Fred asked himself, "If my old sin nature is gone, HOW can I still sin? This should not be happening! This should be impossible!"

No one was able to give him an answer that satisfied, that actually worked. All they could do is nod their heads sympathetically. Fred's worries and introspection grew darker, compounded now by a new element that lays upon his mind and soul like a layer of frost: Fred had begun to seriously doubt his salvation.

(continued)

So Fred holds to sinless perfection as a Puritan? That is confused. I don't need to post any explicit references to be on safe ground saying Paul had great struggles himself - even at one point saying he despaired even of life. And he wrote of (us all) wrestling with powers and principalities. He said that if anyone thinks he stands, let him take heed lest he fall. There is no perfection in that sense (this side of eternity). In fact, I would think that the more intense one's struggles, the more the sinful nature is being enflamed. Satan doesn't go after the ineffectual - he goes after the most strategic targets. "Have you considered My servant Job?"

On gloomy lack of joy : "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for I am joyful Thou art with me."

 

[Eeset]

aww poor Phred.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Patiently waiting for the continued part of the story.....

 

[glorydaz]

The name is changed. Everything else is true.

Fred had heard, understood, and gratefully believed the Gospel of grace not long before. Fred is also a Calvinist, though he doesn't yet realize it. He's not yet familiar with the finer details of Calvinism - only a general outline in the form of assumptions behind how the Bible is interpreted and taught by the people he knows and trusts. Fred doesn't yet know that what he hears in his church - while not officially Reformed but proudly "nondenominational" - is strongly influenced by a mix of several interpretive views, Covenant and Reformed theology being the primary one.

In the area of sanctification, Fred's church is rather fuzzy-headed. But like any babe in Christ, Fred doesn't know that. He simply believes what he's been told from the pulpit, in small groups and during book studies is what the Bible teaches. So, like any babe, he clings to it. Fred isn't yet mature enough in Christ to think to examine any of the spoonfeedings. Even if it had, he wouldn't know, at this point in his life, where or how to begin.

Yet like the Puritans of old, Fred by nature has always tended to be introspective, overly self-examining and, especially recently, a bit gloomy. What there was no longer any trace of, is joy in the Lord. That is gone.

Something big has been on his mind. The reason, he later learned, is common: not very long after believing the Gospel, Fred noticed the temptation of old sins he'd spent years indulging - sins he now loathed - began to plague him afresh. This just didn't make sense. True, many things were different now. But Fred had been told - guaranteed on the basis of the Word of God - that his old nature had been eradicated when he was saved so that the new, sinless, God-given nature was now all that remained inside of him. Fred's conclusion, naturally, was that he'd no longer feel the familiar pull of those old sins and would walk in complete and wonderful victory. On the occasions he would feel temptations, they (Fred was assured) would be no match for the new nature since the flesh could no longer be energized by the now-dead old nature!

Yet temptations started to come even more often, in raging waves. And sin Fred did. Sure, there were blessed moments of victory over temptation but noticeably fewer and fewer. More often, Fred struggled and fell into the same old behavior patterns he'd lived in for years.

"How can this be?" Fred asked himself, "If my old sin nature is gone, HOW can I still sin? This should not be happening! This should be impossible!"

No one was able to give him an answer that satisfied, that actually worked. All they could do is nod their heads sympathetically. Fred's worries and introspection grew darker, compounded now by a new element that lays upon his mind and soul like a layer of frost: Fred had begun to seriously doubt his salvation.

(continued)

Fred is a "wretched" man, and has not yet been delivered from the LAW of sin and death....he is still carnal sold under sin.

Romans 7:18-24 KJV
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?​

We don't have to wait for this body of flesh to die in order to be delivered from sin's dominion over us. Paul was no longer that "wretched man". He no longer did the evil he didn't want to do. He no longer was unable to do the good he wanted to do.

Romans 8:2-6 KJV
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.​

Fred must undergo the operation of God in order to find peace and dominion over sin, and become a servant of righteousness instead of a slave to sin. Fred isn't yet fully persuaded that God is ABLE to perform what He has promised.

Romans 8:10 KJV
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Colossians 2:10-12 KJV
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

 

[musterion]

(cont.)

Perhaps the biggest of several "final straws" was when his pastor, having no more answers in reply to Fred's frequent pleas for help, handed him an old copy of A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God. The pastor said it would help. It didn't help. Chapter 5 only made things far, far worse by confirming the suspicions Fred had already begun to believe about himself - that he was a goat, a tare, a false professor, a deceived reprobate for whom Christ had never died at all, and who was even now in the process of proving it by both is inability to be free of the presence of sin and by his (he was convinced) slow motion falling away to his preordained damnation.

Fred grew more despondent by the day under an ever-heavier burden of perplexity, guilt, frustration, resentment, bitterness, anger and dread. More often, now, his sins went unresisted and unconfessed (though he still believed, at least theoretically, that 1 John 1:9 was, as he'd always heard, vital for his continued communion and relationship with God, a plain reading of it implied something much more grave). What would be the point of confession if he was really a reprobate? None whatsoever.

Fred was in a seemingly unstoppable downward spiral but saw no way out of it. He wept, privately and often, crying out to God as every passing day found him feeling more and more numb to the things of Christ. Gradually he was losing the ability to care about anything. But there were moments he was still desperate for any answer, for he knew he could not be the first person in this situation...and in any event, he was still in evangelical "keep up appearances at all cost" mode. Because not one person he knew seemed troubled by the problems he was going through (if they were they NEVER let on), it was all faked.

So he continued to devour book after book, regardless of author, in the dwindling hope that someone, somewhere, has not only gone through this but had found a way out of it...found a way to discern that they were, in fact, not reprobate but elect and being attacked by Satan or just severely tested by God, or both. No luck. Plenty of ideas, systems, plans, methods, meditations, devotions and disciplines were suggested. Great assurances are made. "Christian" counseling was even suggested and tried...that proved a worthless waste of money. But nothing really, truly, permanently worked to check the indwelling sin he'd been told was long gone, and which others insisted was gone. The babel of conflicting doctrinal voices only made it worse.

The Bible itself went neglected and even resented. Some increasingly warped and wordless part of Fred's mind had begun to impress upon him the unspeakable fear that the Bible itself was somehow the source of all his problems, for it held only comfortless, empty promises God had intended for others. For him, it held only stern words of rebuke and hopeless damnation whenever he did try to read it. So he found himself turning indiscriminately and even more urgently, though increasingly less often, to the empty cisterns of other people's purported victories, wisdom and (he later learned) not a few lies. But Fred was getting close to just giving up.

 

[glorydaz]

(cont.)

Perhaps the biggest of several "final straws" was when his pastor, having no more answers in reply to Fred's frequent pleas for help, handed Fred a copy of A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God. The pastor said it would help. It didn't help. Chapter 5 only made things far, far worse by confirming the suspicions Fred had already begun to believe about himself - that he was a goat, a tare, a false professor, a deceived reprobate for whom Christ had never died at all, and who was even now in the process of proving it by both is inability to be free of the presence of sin and by his (he was convinced) slow motion falling away to his preordained damnation.

Fred grew more despondent by the day under an ever-heavier burden of perplexity, guilt, frustration, resentment, bitterness, anger and dread. More often, now, his sins went unresisted and unconfessed (he still believed 1 John 1:9, as he'd always heard, was vital for his continued communion and relationship with God...even though a plain reading of it implied something much more grave). What would be the point of confession if he was really a reprobate? Fred was in a seemingly unstoppable downward spiral but saw no way out of it. He wept, privately and often, crying out to God as every passing day found him feeling more and more numb to the things of Christ. Gradually he was losing the ability to care about anything.

But there were moments he was still desperate for any answer, for he knew he could not be the first person in this situation. So he continued to devour book after book, regardless of author, in the dwindling hope that someone, somewhere, has not only gone through this but had found a way out of it. No luck. Plenty of ideas, systems, plans, methods, meditations, devotions and disciplines were suggested. Great assurances are made. But nothing really, truly, permanently worked to check the indwelling sin he'd been told was long gone. The babel of conflicting doctrinal voices only made it worse.

The Bible itself - which some increasingly warped and wordless part of Fred's mind had by now impressed upon him as somehow the source of all his problems - was now resented and almost totally neglected. It held only comfortless, empty promises made to others; for him, it held stern words of rebuke and hopeless damnation whenever he did try to read it.

So he found himself turning indiscriminately and even more urgently, though increasingly less often, to the empty cisterns of other people's purported experiences, guidance and lies.

Poor Fred. Reading books....looking to men....seeking....

Romans 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Luke 18:13-14 KJV
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

This is a perfect example of why we do NOT preach the gospel of fear and loss that Jason preaches. Fred already knows he is a sinner. He already knows he is lost. He already knows he is not able to do one single thing to help himself. These false teachers and preachers, like Jason, God's UNtruth, and Meshak only keep Fred from coming to God for His mercy and grace. They preach the God of wrath from the OT, and NOT our Lord Jesus Christ and HIS work on the Cross for us.

 

[musterion]

This is a perfect example of why we do NOT preach the gospel of fear and loss that Jason preaches. Fred already knows he is a sinner. He already knows he is lost. He already knows he is not able to do one single thing to help himself. These false teachers and preachers, like Jason, God's UNtruth, and Meshak only keep Fred from coming to God for His mercy and grace. They preach the God of wrath from the OT, and NOT our Lord Jesus Christ and HIS work on the Cross for us.

Amen. Fred had heard and read, but did not really see, any of that at the time. And NOW he knows he wasn't the only one, either.

Spoiler

Fred's problems are over now.

 

[glorydaz]

Amen. Fred had heard and read, but did not really see, any of that at the time. And NOW he knows he wasn't the only one, either.

Spoiler

Fred's problems are over now.

I love it. I always think of the blind man who says when asked how it was he could see, "I don't know, but once I was blind and now I see." :thumb:

 

[musterion]

(cont.)

Even though the blessed Word of God was now just a collection of words on a page with all life seemingly gone out of them (or out of him, he isn't sure), Fred still so much wants to claim those promises, those Psalms, those Words of Christ in the Beatitudes for himself, to soak in them, to rest on them. But Fred can't be sure these promises of help, deliverance and freedom are really addressed to or speaking about him for, rearing its head yet again, is his unkillable Serpent of Possible Reprobation.

If asked, Fred would say he's as convinced as he ever that the Bible IS the Word of God. And part of his mind still says he believes it. But deep in his heart, more every day, the Bible has as much down-to-the-soul relevance to his existence as the white pages of the Tokyo phone book.

Then, a ray of grace broke through the gloom; perhaps an answer to a prayer, his or his wife's, someone's, or God just being merciful. Fred becomes convinced afresh that this problem, which is slowly killing him, is not the Bible but with with himself. The question is where within himself?

And the grace comes just in time, for Fred sees the bottom coming up fast; work suffers, marriage suffers, even hygiene suffers as he frequently finds himself musing suicide, more often than even his wife already knows about. Reluctantly, at her urging, Fred voices this new temptation to his pastor.

"Look," the pastor says, visibly irritated over having to once again cover this same, worn ground, "you heard the Gospel, didn't you? You know that means you're saved, right? You trusted Christ as your Lord and Savior, right? So exactly what is wrong with the blood of Christ?" he asks Fred.

Yes, he did believe the Gospel. He knows he did, and still did, with all the faith he thought he had to muster up. But no comfort comes from this for Fred knows - because the pastor himself said it in more than one sermon - that even hopeless, predestined-for-Hell reprobates can 'believe' the Gospel and appear to bear much spiritual fruit...for a time, but to a vain end because the blood of Christ hadn't been shed for them because God simply didn't love them enough to let His Son die for them, too.

But for the first time, by God's grace, Fred begins to realize the stupidity of never having taken the initiative to actually examine the things he's been taught since he was a babe in Christ. It was at this point that a years-long process began which slowly, by God's grace, caused the chains on his mind to finally start falling off.

And a key event that started the mental dominoes falling was when he met an ex-Calvinist.

 

[musterion]

(conclusion)

But the chains would not come off easily, and not right away. Reprobate or elect, the fact stood that no man could say who was who, either of himself or of others. "Fruit checkers" claimed that ability but Fred doubted it, since they also admitted fruit can be counterfeited quite effectively. Some of the greatest humanitarian feats of Christian history, it stood to reason, had been performed by devout Christians who - though they didn't know it and wouldn't have believed it had they been told - would in the end be revealed as not really Christians. There's simply no way to know if you were Christ's if you couldn't know the Rock of Ages had been cleft for you. You could HOPE, but you could not KNOW. "Am I one of them?" some part of Fred still asks himself daily. "Am I a religious, predestined to sooner-or-later fall away reprobate? Yes, I believed the Gospel. I believe it now! But is that enough? The Gospel means the extinction of 'the sin complex,' as my pastor's esteemed John MacArthur commentaries called it. Why is my 'sin complex' still very much intact and active? Anyone can delude himself into thinking he's believed the Gospel when his faith is not really real because God didn't give it to him...is my persistent indwelling sin the proof I'm actually not His?"

"You know what your problem is, Fred?" asked the ex-Calvinist (let's call him Roy).

"Yeah. I still have sin inside me that won't go away and actually seems to have gotten worse, so I think I'm a reprobate because I can't know I'm one of God's elect."

With a sad, knowing smile, Roy shook his head. "No, that's not your problem. That's pretty much normal."

Fred was stunned. This was a thought that had quite literally never occurred to him before and went against what he'd always been told to believe. But still desperate for a solution, he listened.

"Your basic problem, Fred, is that you've been poisoned by wrong doctrine...dangerously wrong doctrine. A lot of it. And then you poisoned yourself even more by looking in exactly the wrong places for the cure."

Fred was smitten with instant guilt, for he suddenly knew this was true - at least the second part. All the book reading...it never amounted to anything except more pain, confusion and despair. As for the first part, though...

"Listen, Fred. I know what you've been through and are going through because I've been there myself. You have been misled by a man who I am convinced was used by Satan at a key point in the history of Christendom to mislead many...and mislead them he has. He wasn't the only one, and most of his errors did not originate with him. But he's the man whose face and name is most closely connected to all this. All of your agony, Fred, goes back to a guy who was still in his 20s and only out of the Roman Catholic church for a few years when he wrote volumes of books that changed the course of the history of Christendom...a man for whom no one has yet been able to locate a clear testimony of salvation by the Gospel of the grace of God. You know his name, Fred?"

"A.W. Pink?"

"No, not Pink. Pink's...teachings...are filtered down from the guy I'm talking about. John Calvin. I bet you didn't even realize it, Fred, but based on your testimony of the Gospel, I believe you ARE saved, and have been this whole time. Problem is, you were brainwashed right off the bat with a head full of false Reformed/Covenant doctrine that the people you know and trusted were likewise brainwashed with. You were MADE into a Calvinist.

"The thing is, every now and then a Calvinist - if he's thoughtful and especially if he's honest with himself - will admit he cannot know he is saved and Satan takes great advantage of this. It's perfectly logical within that framework, as you've already discovered for yourself. No one can know. But, Fred, what does the Bible say about that? About knowing?"

Fred sighed. "It promises that we can know and we should know but --"

"There is no but," Roy cut in. "The Word of God is all you need...all you ever needed. Either His Word is all-sufficient for our lives here on earth, or it is not. And the Word says if you're in Christ you are saved AND SAFE in Him. Period. It's not your fault that you were brainwashed. You couldn't help that. And it's not really your fault that as an immature, guidance-less believer, you pushed the Word of God away as the source of your problem and instead sought help from other people. That's fairly normal, too...not right, nor correct, nor biblical, but it is a typical reaction. But now you no longer have that excuse. If you want to know - to REALLY KNOW - who you are and what you have in Christ, I can help, just as someone once helped me. But the first step can be hard, if you tend to be proud. You have to admit you've been deceived."

I was "Fred," and I was deceived. I was deceived to the point that I seriously contemplated suicide, and all because of bad theology.

To this day I regret the pain I put my wife and friends through. I am so thankful that we did not yet have our daughters; I cannot imagine their having to endure the collateral spiritual and emotional damage of those days, as they most assuredly would have done.

But now, years later, I am free of ALL of that. Now I know who I am and what I have in Christ. Now I know what ANYONE can have by simply believing the Gospel of the grace of God. Now I know the purpose of the full armor of God, of which I was stripped naked in those days. Now I see the blasphemous, satanic insult Calvinism hurls against God, reducing Him from loving, willing Father so willing that none should perish that He gave His only begotten Son for all...to callous, lying monster who mocks the lost and damns even reprobate infants to the Lake of Fire, all to His purported glory.

Like most modern Christians I've made a minor hobby of studying cults and false religious movements. Some false gospels are obvious, some more subtle. But no error has so thoroughly blighted so many minds for so long within the Body of Christ as the horrendously arrogant system known as Calvinism. It robs of the Gospel...it robs of the Blood...it robs of a Christ who can be trusted...it robs of a God who is rational...it robs from freedom from works...it robs of assurance...it robs of peace...it robs of hope. Perhaps not for all, but for many. If it doesn't for you, it's only because you've convinced yourself that you are of the elect, even though that is something you cannot know and you know it.

It is, for those reasons, of its father, the devil, who came steal, kill and destroy. I know, for through Calvinism Satan stole my God-guaranteed inheritance of peace, destroyed my God-given right to complete assurance in Christ and almost destroyed my marriage, and very nearly made me kill myself. None of that was the work of God in my life; it was directly attributable to me trying to live up to what I'd been told to believe. It was the fruit of my trying to live consistently with TULIP.

If you have been infected by the mind-virus of Calvinism, you can be free.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Did Fred become a Christian through obeying the command of Acts 2:38 from those sent by Christ to preach it?

Was Fred filled with the Holy Spirit as all the converted of the book of Acts were?

LA

 

[musterion]

Did Fred become a Christian through obeying the command of Acts 2:38 from those sent by Christ to preach it?

No, they'd all been dead about 2,000 years when Fred was saved so Fred hasn't met them yet, but is looking forward to it. He did believe Paul's gospel, however.

Was Fred filled with the Holy Spirit as all the converted of the book of Acts were?

No, Fred didn't exist during the Acts period. Fred was, however, baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ and also sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. All the Calvinistic voodoo blinded him to those blessed facts, but he sees them now.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No, they'd all been dead about 2,000 years when Fred was saved so Fred hasn't met them yet, but is looking forward to it. He did believe Paul's gospel, however.

No, Fred didn't exist during the Acts period. Fred was, however, baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ and also sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. All the Calvinistic voodoo blinded him to those blessed facts, but he sees them now.

Was Fred filled with the Holy Spirit as the believers of the book of Acts were?

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.



Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


LA

 

[ttruscott]

Fred is a "wretched" man, and has not yet been delivered from the LAW of sin and death....he is still carnal sold under sin.

...

Fred must undergo the operation of God in order to find peace and dominion over sin, and become a servant of righteousness instead of a slave to sin. Fred isn't yet fully persuaded that God is ABLE to perform what He has promised.

...

I'm not so didactic but somewhat in agreement...

We know that our body of sinful death dies and we are reborn into the Spirit, our enslaving addiction to evil broken. But we are babes who have little impulse control and as all babes must, learn heavenly mores from trial and error. Our lives of predestination to heaven (speaking as elect to elect) offset the power of sin to addict us again if we sin in our new life but our decision making process, our volition, must be trained.

And here is how:

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 for whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.”

Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

The LORD's sons are chastened, rebuked and scourged - all words which connote punishment for wrong doing. Since the only wrong doing in relation to GOD is sin, they are being spanked for sin. And since you don't spank a child for making a mistake, these sins are being indulged in and HIS warnings ignored. Neh?

You become a son by rebirth, by grace through faith. So we are talking about the truly (not Cain-ish pew warmers) converted and saved but still NEEDING to be punished painfully so as to produce the fruit of righteousness and peace!

BUT we also have a righteousness that comes by faith without works:
Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness”. 6 “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness without works...”
and
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So we have two righteousness-es. If the righteousness of GOD by faith was all in all, they why do we suffer painfully under the hand of GOD's chastisements designed to produce the fruit of righteousness and peace?

It seems most likely to me that the righteousness imputed to us by our faith allows GOD to look upon us and to deal with us and to grant us the grace of sanctification. And the righteousness that is the fruit of HIS chastisements upon us is the chosen righteousness of a person trained up to make righteous choices until he is at peace with himself and with GOD which is the state of holiness, not rejecting GOD for any reason any longer.

This is the failing of the saved by faith alone crowd. They stop at the first without reading about the second. Adam and Eve were under the shed blood, the type for Christ, but still had to wear the clothing of the animal skins, type for these acts of righteousness from a chastised spirit.

The saints wear fine linen: Revelation 19:8 Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people. and without these clothes of righteous acts, probably produced as the fruit of HIS chastisements of them as sons, we may be in the position of the Israelites who for lack of obedience had to wander the wilderness, ie live with the tares, for another 40 years or maybe

even in the position of the wedding guest invited to the feast but without the covering / clothing of acts of righteousness so he is thrown into the outer darkness.

Peace, Ted

 

[Christian Liberty]

I can't respond in depth right now, but very quickly, I notice a couple of issues:

Sinning after believing the gospel is NOT proof that one is unregenerate or non-elect. I don't know where Fred gets this idea from.

It is NOT true that Calvinists have no assurance. This idea is based off the false presumption that God just elects people independently of their faith in the gospel. By contrast, when God saves a man, he GIVES that man faith in the gospel. No others can believe. They may be able to believe semi-pelagianism, or some other false gospel, but they cannot truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation: only the elect will ever do so and only the elect will ever have interest in doing so.

By contrast, Arminianism gives no assurance because it is based in what the man does in his own heart rather than what Christ ACCOMPLISHED on the cross.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I suspect the influence of Hyper-Calvinism as well. A.W. Pink wasn't a hyper but he may have been borderline according to some. Mainstream Calvinism doesn't teach that God rejects the reprobate independently of their sins, for instance. God punishes the reprobate not just because he hates them, but because they DESERVE punishment. The reprobate get no worse than what they deserve. God is a just God. But praise God, he has given Christ to suffer on the cross for all who he has chosen, that they might believe in this blessed gospel and be SPARED the punishment they deserve.

 

[moonbeam]

Now I know what ANYONE can have by simply believing the Gospel of the grace of God.

That was your problem right there…YOU didn't BELIEVE dude

YOU simply didn't believe.

But no error has so thoroughly blighted so many minds for so long within the Body of Christ as the horrendously arrogant system known as Calvinism.

I recommend A.W. Pinks book The Sovereignty of God…a very thorough examination of the subject concerned.

It robs of the Gospel...it robs of the Blood...it robs of a Christ who can be trusted...it robs of a God who is rational...it robs from freedom from works...it robs of assurance...it robs of peace...it robs of hope.

Well actually A. W Pinks book The Sovereignty of God does none of those things you have mentioned above…I suspect that that is because it is a quite thorough examination of the scriptural evidence regarding God's sovereignty over His creation.

Therefore, in my experience, I found it thoroughly uplifting and edifying…as is to be expected I suppose…after all, it was quite a thorough scriptural examination of the subject concerned, that being The Sovereignty of God.

Perhaps your difficulty with the book at that time was your notion of the sovereignty of man ?

Perhaps not for all, but for many. If it doesn't for you, it's only because you've convinced yourself that you are of the elect, even though that is something you cannot know and you know it.

Well actually…I am one of the elect…and I know it.

And consequently…I am convinced of it.

It is, for those reasons, of its father, the devil, who came steal, kill and destroy. I know, for through Calvinism Satan stole my God-guaranteed inheritance of peace, destroyed my God-given right to complete assurance in Christ and almost destroyed my marriage, and very nearly made me kill myself. None of that was the work of God in my life; it was directly attributable to me trying to live up to what I'd been told to believe. It was the fruit of my trying to live consistently with TULIP.

YOU…simply failed to believe.

YOU simply chose…UNBELIEF

YOU simply refused to believe what God said…and you chose to believe what YOU thought

YOU were the problem…don't blame somebody else.

If you have been infected by the mind-virus of Calvinism, you can be free.

I have been infected by the mind-virus known as "The Truth"

I caught it by accident one day when I was reading this book called The Holy Bible.

Hallelujah.

 

[Christian Liberty]

It robs of the Gospel...it robs of the Blood...it robs of a Christ who can be trusted...it robs of a God who is rational...it robs from freedom from works...it robs of assurance...it robs of peace...it robs of hope.

By contrast, the false belief known as "universal atonement" does these things. The God of universal atonement cannot be trusted, for he cannot successfully guarantee the redemption of anyone. This false god did everything he could, yet he still failed to redeem the vast majority of humanity. I choose not to worship a god that fails, and I don't understand why anyone would want to.

 

[moonbeam]

musterion….…here's a song for you.

Vote for….PINK

Hallelujah

Well I heard there was a secret chord
that David played and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
Well it goes like this:
The fourth, the fifth,
The minor fall and the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah

Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah...

Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
She tied you to her kitchen chair
She broke your throne and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah...

Baby I've been here before
I've seen this room and I've walked this floor (you know)
I used to live alone before I knew you
And I've seen your flag on the marble arch
and love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah

Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah...

there was a time when you let me know
What's really going on below
But now you never show that to me, do you?
But remember when I moved in you
And the holy dove was moving too
And every breath we drew was Hallelujah

Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah...

Maybe there's a God above
But all I've ever learned from love
Was how to shoot somebody who outdrew you
And it's not a cry that you hear at night
It's not somebody who's seen the light
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah

Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah…

.