Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles
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Freak
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Good.
I'll answer once again...the laying of hands had nothing to do with it. Hands do not bring the Holy Spirit or spiritual gifts. Only God gives gifts. The Holy Spirit choose to work in unity with the apostle Paul when he layed his hands upon them. For we know hands do not bring spiritual gifts to a believer but rather God does...
We see from Scripture that God gives spiritual gifts not the hands...
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
I said:
And if the laying of hands was not connected to the receiving of the gifts then why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them to begin with?
In His grace,--Jerry
I said:
You did not answer any of my questions.You said:
I have already agreed with you that the source of the gifts are from God.But since the gifys of the Holy Spirit came to them at the time that Paul laid his hands on them it seems as if the laying on of hands is somehow connected with their receiving those gifts.Are you saying that this was just a coincidence?
And if the laying of hands was not connected to the receiving of the gifts then why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them to begin with?
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
Apparently you didn't read my earlier post. But, let's try this again...
I said:
I'll answer once again...the laying of hands had nothing to do with it. Hands do not bring the Holy Spirit or spiritual gifts. Only God gives gifts. The Holy Spirit choose to work in unity with the apostle Paul when he layed his hands upon them. For we know hands do not bring spiritual gifts to a believer but rather God does...
I'll answer you again. I stated:
The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
godrulz seems to be saying that there is a "cause and effect" in regard to the laying on of hands.
He says that they lay hands on people and then they speak in tongues.
Is godrulz in error?
In HIs grace,--Jerry
Why not ask Godrulz directly?
Anecdotally, people have initially spoke in tongues in the shower, driving a car, kneeling by their bed, standing in church, coming out of a baptism tank, etc. The Spirit is a wind that blows as He wishes. God is not reduced to a formula or technique. Some pastors/leaders lay hands on people at home or church and they speak in tongues. Just as many have many hands laid on them and they do not speak in tongues. This is not a simple cause-effect. It is similar to healing and deliverance. Laying on of hands is one of many ways that people are healed/delivered (see Gospels/Acts). It is not the only way, and it is not causative but symbolic/point of contact (some think you can transfer the anointing like a fluid...the Spirit is a person though).
Cause and effect is how God rules inanimate creation (rocks). Free will, love, moral law is the way God rules free moral agents. God does not flap my tongue and make me speak. We speak (our will is involved) AS the SPIRIT gives utterance (hence, the supernatural, divine factor).
I spoke in tongues for the first (not last) time in the quiet of my bedroom 2 months subsequent to being 'born again'. I am not a SuperChristian and believe this gift is for all believers (Pentecostal distinctive).
One would have to look at all references relating to laying on of hands in Judeo-Christianity to gain an accurate understanding of its historical and theological basis.
Anecdotally, people have initially spoke in tongues in the shower, driving a car, kneeling by their bed, standing in church, coming out of a baptism tank, etc. The Spirit is a wind that blows as He wishes. God is not reduced to a formula or technique. Some pastors/leaders lay hands on people at home or church and they speak in tongues. Just as many have many hands laid on them and they do not speak in tongues. This is not a simple cause-effect. It is similar to healing and deliverance. Laying on of hands is one of many ways that people are healed/delivered (see Gospels/Acts). It is not the only way, and it is not causative but symbolic/point of contact (some think you can transfer the anointing like a fluid...the Spirit is a person though).
Cause and effect is how God rules inanimate creation (rocks). Free will, love, moral law is the way God rules free moral agents. God does not flap my tongue and make me speak. We speak (our will is involved) AS the SPIRIT gives utterance (hence, the supernatural, divine factor).
I spoke in tongues for the first (not last) time in the quiet of my bedroom 2 months subsequent to being 'born again'. I am not a SuperChristian and believe this gift is for all believers (Pentecostal distinctive).
One would have to look at all references relating to laying on of hands in Judeo-Christianity to gain an accurate understanding of its historical and theological basis.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
godrulz,
Earlier I wrote Freak saying,"since the gifts of the Holy Spirit came to them at the time that Paul laid his hands on them it seems as if the laying on of hands is somehow connected with their receiving those gifts."
I then asked him,"Are you saying that this was just a coincidence?"
To which he replied:
But it seems to me that Paul's laying of hands did in fact have something to do with the fact that those men received the sign gifts at the time that Paul laid his hands on them.
And you seem to be implying that it is after someone lays their hands on another then at that time they are able to speak in tongues.
I realize that every gift comes from the Lord,but in certain instances He uses men in order to bring about those gifts.The gift of "eternal life" comes from the Lord,no doubt,but at the same time he uses men to bring about the receiving of that gift:
"How,then,shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed?And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?And how shall they hear without a preacher?"(Ro.10:14).
It appears to me that the Lord was using Paul to bring about the sign gifts to the men that he laid his hands upon at Acts 19:1-6.
Since the sign gifts are such an important part of the Assembly of God denomination I would think that they would issue some kind of offical statement in regard to the purpose and practice of the "laying on of hands"?
Are you aware of any such instructions?
In His grace,--Jerry
Earlier I wrote Freak saying,"since the gifts of the Holy Spirit came to them at the time that Paul laid his hands on them it seems as if the laying on of hands is somehow connected with their receiving those gifts."
I then asked him,"Are you saying that this was just a coincidence?"
To which he replied:
But it seems to me that Paul's laying of hands did in fact have something to do with the fact that those men received the sign gifts at the time that Paul laid his hands on them.
And you seem to be implying that it is after someone lays their hands on another then at that time they are able to speak in tongues.
I realize that every gift comes from the Lord,but in certain instances He uses men in order to bring about those gifts.The gift of "eternal life" comes from the Lord,no doubt,but at the same time he uses men to bring about the receiving of that gift:
"How,then,shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed?And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?And how shall they hear without a preacher?"(Ro.10:14).
It appears to me that the Lord was using Paul to bring about the sign gifts to the men that he laid his hands upon at Acts 19:1-6.
Since the sign gifts are such an important part of the Assembly of God denomination I would think that they would issue some kind of offical statement in regard to the purpose and practice of the "laying on of hands"?
Are you aware of any such instructions?
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
Jerry, it's time to move on....
We've dealt with your hands questions in light of Scripure. Now, I ask you to deal with this:
Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
We've dealt with your hands questions in light of Scripure. Now, I ask you to deal with this:
Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Freak,
I agree with Jerry in regard to the laying on of hands. Jesus worked through the apostles, and can work through chosen individuals today, to heal and perform other miracles.
Yes, Paul did exhort us to imitate him as he imitates Christ. However, it was not Paul who performed the miracles that involved him, it was God. We should imitate Paul in all things we have control of, our faithfullness, our attitude, our effort to spread the gospel, etc... And if God chooses, He may work a miracle through us. But remember that it is God's choice who He works through.
You are correct that it is not the hands that cause the miracles, but nothing prevents God from working through anything He created as He is the master of all creation. There is no reasonable explanation you could provide that would show that God cannot work through anyone or anything He chooses. On the contrary, there are many examples of God working miracles through all sorts of matter including humans, animals, dirt, water, fire, etc...
God can work a miracle through something material, like Paul's handkerchief for instance. He can perform a miracle through the water like He did at the pool at Siloam. He can perform a miracle through an animal like the whale that swallowed Jonah or the talking donkey. God even worked miracles through the bones of Elisha.
There is no reason to exclude the spiritual from working through the material, particularly as it relates to humans. After all, we are a union of both spirit and matter.
I'm not going to jump into the middle of debate, I just wanted to interject my thoughts on an interesting subject. I hope all is going well with you my friend. Take care.
God Bless,
Francisco
I agree with Jerry in regard to the laying on of hands. Jesus worked through the apostles, and can work through chosen individuals today, to heal and perform other miracles.
Yes, Paul did exhort us to imitate him as he imitates Christ. However, it was not Paul who performed the miracles that involved him, it was God. We should imitate Paul in all things we have control of, our faithfullness, our attitude, our effort to spread the gospel, etc... And if God chooses, He may work a miracle through us. But remember that it is God's choice who He works through.
You are correct that it is not the hands that cause the miracles, but nothing prevents God from working through anything He created as He is the master of all creation. There is no reasonable explanation you could provide that would show that God cannot work through anyone or anything He chooses. On the contrary, there are many examples of God working miracles through all sorts of matter including humans, animals, dirt, water, fire, etc...
God can work a miracle through something material, like Paul's handkerchief for instance. He can perform a miracle through the water like He did at the pool at Siloam. He can perform a miracle through an animal like the whale that swallowed Jonah or the talking donkey. God even worked miracles through the bones of Elisha.
There is no reason to exclude the spiritual from working through the material, particularly as it relates to humans. After all, we are a union of both spirit and matter.
I'm not going to jump into the middle of debate, I just wanted to interject my thoughts on an interesting subject. I hope all is going well with you my friend. Take care.
God Bless,
Francisco
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
I have already answered.During the Acts period there were three different baptisms in effect.But now there is only one,and the baptism with the Spirit for the sign gifts is not the "one baptism" for today.
And you said:
In His grace,--Jerry
I have already answered.During the Acts period there were three different baptisms in effect.But now there is only one,and the baptism with the Spirit for the sign gifts is not the "one baptism" for today.
And you said:
So if they are working in "unity" then the laying on of hands did in fact have something to do with the receiving of the sign gifts.I cannot even imagine how you could still say that the laying on of hands had nothing with the receiving of the sign gifts since you admit that they were working in "unity".
In His grace,--Jerry
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Freak
New member
But that answer fails for we know Paul was speaking of the gift of miracles to those who had the same baptism as the present church. Were you aware of this?
When I say unity I'm speaking of the apostle Paul being led by the Spirit, working in cooperation of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit directed, for symbolic reasons (just as we have the symbolism of marriage rings), to lay hands upon people. Gifts and miracles are a work of God not hands. The Holy Spirit, the triune God gives gifts not hands as seen from Paul's writings...
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Freak,
We have been over this many times and I do not think that it benefits either one of us to continue speaking about these same things.I am curious as to whether or not any of the other early Christian writers said anything about possessing the sign gifts.Of course I think you know that many of the things which some of the early believers taught were in error,so I am not saying that we should put what they say over what the Scriptures reveal.
However,if they did possess these sign gifts then I would think that they would at least mention that fact in their writings.
Are you aware of any of the early writings that mention sign gifts?
In His grace,--Jerry
We have been over this many times and I do not think that it benefits either one of us to continue speaking about these same things.I am curious as to whether or not any of the other early Christian writers said anything about possessing the sign gifts.Of course I think you know that many of the things which some of the early believers taught were in error,so I am not saying that we should put what they say over what the Scriptures reveal.
However,if they did possess these sign gifts then I would think that they would at least mention that fact in their writings.
Are you aware of any of the early writings that mention sign gifts?
In His grace,--Jerry
I took a course on Pentecostal history. There are pockets of charismatic revival throughout the centuries. The Church lost some of its distinctives and emphasis over the years (Catholic, Constantine, apostasy, etc.), hence the restoration of various truths (Baptists, Reformation= faith/word, Alliance=healing under A.B. Simpson, Pentecostal/charismatic movements in 1900s/1960s...waves... etc.).
Freak
New member
There is ample evidence, Jerry.
Casting out demons or evil spirits, which Jesus mentions as being a miracle in Mark 9, was routinely practiced in the early church. The Scriptural record is in my favor along with church history. Were you aware of this?
Irenaens Against Heresies, Book II, 32:4 (190 A.D.) "For some (Christians) do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church." Deliverance is also implied to be done by Christians in Book II, 31:2.
Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 8 (153 A.D.) This apology was addressed to the Roman Senatel. "And they {demons), having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the Name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them."
Second Apology, Ch. 6, "And now yon (Roman Senate) can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the Name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the demons out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs."
Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew, Ch. 30 (150 A.D.), "For we call Him (Jesus) Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear, and at this day, when they are exorcised in the Name of Jesus Christ, they are overcome."
Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 76, "And now we, who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when we exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us."
Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 85, "For every demon, when exorcised in the Name of this very Son of God ... is overcome and subdued. But though you exorcise any demon in the name of any of those who were amongst you -- either kings, or righteous men, or prophets, or patriarchs -- it will not be subject to you. Now assuredly your (Jewish) exorcists, I have said, make use of craft when they exorcise, even as the Gentiles do, and employ fumigations and incantations.''
Tatian, Address of Tatian to the Greeks, Ch. 16 (160 A.D.), "Sometimes they themselves (demons) disturb the habit of the body by a tempest of folly, but, being smitten by the Word of God, they depart in terror, and the sick man is healed."
Theophilus, Theophilus to Autolycus, Book II, 8 (160-180 A.D.), Theophilus is refuting the false teachings of Homer and Hesiod who were famous Greek poets. "... And this clearly appears from the fact, that even to this day the demonized are sometimes exorcised in the Name of the living and true God; and these spirits of error themselves confess that they are demons who also formerly inspired these writers (Homer and Hesiod)."
Tertullion, Apology, Ch. 23, (197 A.D.), "Let a person be brought before your tribunals, who is plainly under demonic possession. The wicked spirit, bidden to speak by a follower of Christ, will as readily make the truthful confession that he is a demon, as elsewhere he has falsely asserted that he is a god."
Tertullian, Apology, Ch. 37, "Who would save you (Roman Rulers), I mean, from the attacks of those spirits of evil, which without reward or hire we (Christians) exorcise?"
Tertullian, To Scapula, Ch. 4, "The clerk of one of the courts who was liable to be thrown upon the ground by an evil spirit, was set free from his affliction (by Christians); as was also the relative of another, and the little boy of a third. How many men of rank (to say nothing of common people) have been delivered from demons, and healed of diseases?"
Minucius Felix, The Octavious of Minucius Felix, (210 A.D.), "A great many, even some of your own people, know all those things that the demons themselves confess concerning themselves, as often as they are driven by us (Christians) from bodies by the torments of our words and by the fires of our prayers," (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV, p. 190.)
Origen, Against Celsus, Book I, 46 (230-254 A.D.), "And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. The Christians expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos."
Against Celsus, Book I, 67, "And the Name of Jesus can still remove distractions from the minds of men, and expel demons, and also take away diseases and produce a complete change of character .... "
Lactentius, The Divine lnstitutes, Book II, 16 (250-320 A.D.), "But they (demons) fear the righteous, that is, the worshippers of God, adjured by whose name they depart from the bodies (of people); for, being lashed by the Christians' words, they not only confess to be demons, but even utter their own names." Also deliverance is mentioned in Book V, 22, and in The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Ch. 51.
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecturer, 16:12 (350-375 A.D.), "For He (Holy Spirit) employs the tongue of one man for wisdom; the soul of another He enlightens by prophecy, to another He gives power to drive away demons .... "
The Divine Institutes, Book V, 22, "For these (demons), as long as there is peace among the people of God, flee from the righteous, and fear them; and when they seize upon the bodies of men, and house their souls, they are adjured by the Christians, and at the Name of the true God are put to flight. For when the demons hear this name they tremble, cry out, and assert that they are branded and beaten; and being asked who they are, whence they are come, and how they have insinuated themselves into a man, confess it. Thus, being tortured and excruciated by the power of the divine name, they come out of the man."
Lactantius, The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Ch. 51, "But of what great weight the cross is, and what power it has, is evident, since all the hosts of demons are expelled and put to flight by it. And as He Himself before His passion put to confusion demons by His word and command, so now, by the name and sign of the same passion, unclean spirits, having insinuated themselves into the bodies of men, are driven out, when racked and tormented, and confessing themselves to be demons, they yield themselves to God, who harasses them.
"What therefore can the Greeks expect from their superstitions and with their wisdom, when they see that their gods, whom they do not deny to be demons also, are subdued by men through the cross?"
godrulz,
And I don't call the false man-made doctrines of the Baptists to be the "restoration of various truths."
The Catholic Church has more charismatics than all the others combined. It's not a matter of "distinctives and emphasis", it's a matter of who the Holy Spirit gives these gifts to.
And I don't call the false man-made doctrines of the Baptists to be the "restoration of various truths."
godrulz:
Baptist = man made beliefs from 18th century
Catholic = teachings passed from Jesus to apostles to all generations
Baptist = changing religion. First Arminian, then Calvinist. Yesterday it was sinful to use musical instrument in church, today they have the loudest musical instruments. Yesterday it's a sin to dance, today it's ok. Yesterday women that wear pants go to hell, today it's ok.
Catholic = the unchangeable teachings of Jesus passed down through the apostles to all generations.
By the way, Baptist's are trinitarian and believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ just as Catholics do. If you don't believe these things you should probably go check out one of the modern cults like the Jehovahs.
Baptist = man made beliefs from 18th century
Catholic = teachings passed from Jesus to apostles to all generations
Baptist = changing religion. First Arminian, then Calvinist. Yesterday it was sinful to use musical instrument in church, today they have the loudest musical instruments. Yesterday it's a sin to dance, today it's ok. Yesterday women that wear pants go to hell, today it's ok.
Catholic = the unchangeable teachings of Jesus passed down through the apostles to all generations.
By the way, Baptist's are trinitarian and believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ just as Catholics do. If you don't believe these things you should probably go check out one of the modern cults like the Jehovahs.