Gotta go for now.....
I will try to visit this thread later tonight!
Thanks for the debate y'all! :up:
I will try to visit this thread later tonight!
Thanks for the debate y'all! :up:
Forgiving Others
- Thread starter Lucky
- Start date
PureX
Well-known member
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You may be misunderstanding forgiveness. Just because we forgive someone doesn't mean that they are not still accountable for their behavior. If someone steals my car, I can forgive them, but I still want my car back, and society will still want the theif to be punished for his crime, and rightly so.
If you're going to hold resentments against everyone who doesn't behave as you think they should, you're going to be carrying around a whole lot of resentment! And to tell you the truth I think that most of it will then be your own fault.
Another person's sins or repentance is between them and God. That's not our business. Our business is to deal with crime. Dealing with crime isn't about forgiveness, it's about establishing and maintaining peace and social order. We must do this whether we forgive people or not.
We are not in charge of what other people think or feel. That is their own business.
Jesus gave is one command, yet he very interestingly expressed this command three ways, he said: "Love God..., and love you brother as yourselves". Jesus also said that as we forgive others, so shall we in turn be forgiven. The interesting thing about love and forgiveness is that they are as good for the giver as they are for the receiver. You seem to be implying, here, that because love and forgiveness feel good to the giver, as well as the receiver, that they must be selfish. But Jesus commanded us to love our brothers as we love ourselves. He didn't say to love our brothers and deny loving ourselves. He meant that the goodness of love and forgiveness be felt by both the giver and the receiver. And it is in the nature of love and forgiveness that it is this way.
adajos
New member
Knight:
Did I or did I not just say that forgiveness of unrepentant sinners is not always appropriate? In that case it wasn't. Why would you bring this up other than to avoid the topic and muddy the waters?
Are you going to answer my questions? You seem to still be missing the point.
Were the Roman soldiers repentant of the sin of executing the Son of God prior to Christ asking the Father to forgive them?
Did I or did I not just say that forgiveness of unrepentant sinners is not always appropriate? In that case it wasn't. Why would you bring this up other than to avoid the topic and muddy the waters?
Are you going to answer my questions? You seem to still be missing the point.
Were the Roman soldiers repentant of the sin of executing the Son of God prior to Christ asking the Father to forgive them?
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(Luke 17:3)
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And He also explained the proper way to forgive others.
(Luke 17:3)
No. Of course not! As both you and I have already pointed out they were NOT aware they were executing the Son of God.
adajos
New member
Knight:
Ignorance of sin does not making something not sinful. If somebody not familiar with the Christian concept of lust as a sin, and they look at pornography, they are still sinning, even though they are ignorant of it.
In the same way, though the Roman soldiers were not aware they were executing the Son of God, yet they were still sinning by doing so. And as you said above, they were not repentant. Yet Christ makes that request for forgiveness of the Father.
So does your above statement mean that you admit there is Biblical precedent for forgiveness of sin without repentance in some circumstances?
Ignorance of sin does not making something not sinful. If somebody not familiar with the Christian concept of lust as a sin, and they look at pornography, they are still sinning, even though they are ignorant of it.
In the same way, though the Roman soldiers were not aware they were executing the Son of God, yet they were still sinning by doing so. And as you said above, they were not repentant. Yet Christ makes that request for forgiveness of the Father.
So does your above statement mean that you admit there is Biblical precedent for forgiveness of sin without repentance in some circumstances?
Not in this case because there was no way for the Roman Soliders to know the extent of what they were doing in regard to executing the Son of God.
adajos
New member
Knight:
Do you apply the same thinking to the sins of people in isolated, primitive cultures who've never heard the name of Christ or Biblical law? Their sins are not sins because there was no way for them to know of their sin?! If not, is this the only situation you can conceive of in which sin "doesn't count" because of human ignorance?
Do you apply the same thinking to the sins of people in isolated, primitive cultures who've never heard the name of Christ or Biblical law? Their sins are not sins because there was no way for them to know of their sin?! If not, is this the only situation you can conceive of in which sin "doesn't count" because of human ignorance?
Obviously that would depend on the sin wouldn't it?
The bottom line is the Roman Soldiers were not forgiven! At least not that we know of. Christ was simply asking the Father to forgive them of the sin they weren't aware of. You can imagine hell is an awful place. And you can imagine how awful it must be to spend eternity with the burden of your sin piled on your back. Now imagine finding out that you executed the Son of God!!! The Creator of all that exists!!!!! Ouch!
Even still we don't know if the Father forgave that aspect of the sin.
Even still we don't know if the Father forgave that aspect of the sin.
Freak
New member
Your brand of Christianity is quite cultic, Poly. Allow me to share with you God's Word on this subject...
We forgive regardless....
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven--if there was anything to forgive--I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Re: Re: Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness
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The fact that we're offended neither always means that the 'offender' is guilty of anything, or that our perceived offense was merited. I've often had to apologize to people who mis-understood me, and hope they don't hold anything against me for it, and even more often, had to apologize for being 'offensive.'
I do agree that Jesus is The Rock of Offense, and that He knows how to get right to the heart of every matter.
As far as your 'bottom line' goes, about the Roman soldiers, I believe that if He hadn't said that, the earth might just have been destroyed, just a few seconds later.
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Hopefully, the subject matter at hand; namely: Forgiving Others. Do you forgive someone that cuts you off, or say, "You jerk?"
No, but that committing a crime is, which it looked like you were trying to smooth over by dismissing.
The fact that we're offended neither always means that the 'offender' is guilty of anything, or that our perceived offense was merited. I've often had to apologize to people who mis-understood me, and hope they don't hold anything against me for it, and even more often, had to apologize for being 'offensive.'
I do agree that Jesus is The Rock of Offense, and that He knows how to get right to the heart of every matter.
As far as your 'bottom line' goes, about the Roman soldiers, I believe that if He hadn't said that, the earth might just have been destroyed, just a few seconds later.
Freak
New member
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Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Furthermore, forgiveness on a human level is necessary if we are to experience forgiveness from God (see Matthew 6:12-15). Forgiveness is also a crucial element in resolving anger and bitterness (see Ephesians 4:27-32). You calling people to unforgiveness is unbiblical and dangerous. :down:
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Clearly, this is in error.
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Furthermore, forgiveness on a human level is necessary if we are to experience forgiveness from God (see Matthew 6:12-15). Forgiveness is also a crucial element in resolving anger and bitterness (see Ephesians 4:27-32). You calling people to unforgiveness is unbiblical and dangerous. :down:
adajos
New member
Knight:
You've already admitted that the Roman Soldiers were unrepentant of their sin of executing the Son of God. You admit that Christ asked the Father to forgive them of their sin. Then you claim that they were not forgiven and that that is the "bottom line". Then you claim that
Which implies that we really don't know whether they were forgiven or not, which seems to contradict your bottom line. So is it the bottom line that God didn't forgive them or isn't it?
Regardless of whether the soldiers' sin was forgiven, would Christ have asked the Father to forgive their sin in spite of their unrepentance if there was something inherantly wrong with forgiving unrepentant sinners? I don't think that makes any sense.
If Christ asked the Father to forgive people who sinned, and were unrepentant (as you've admitted) than I think it's a safe and logical conclusion that forgiving unrepentant sinners in some circumstances is appropriate.
You've already admitted that the Roman Soldiers were unrepentant of their sin of executing the Son of God. You admit that Christ asked the Father to forgive them of their sin. Then you claim that they were not forgiven and that that is the "bottom line". Then you claim that
Which implies that we really don't know whether they were forgiven or not, which seems to contradict your bottom line. So is it the bottom line that God didn't forgive them or isn't it?
Regardless of whether the soldiers' sin was forgiven, would Christ have asked the Father to forgive their sin in spite of their unrepentance if there was something inherantly wrong with forgiving unrepentant sinners? I don't think that makes any sense.
If Christ asked the Father to forgive people who sinned, and were unrepentant (as you've admitted) than I think it's a safe and logical conclusion that forgiving unrepentant sinners in some circumstances is appropriate.
Freak.... what is the disagreement?
We all agree forgiveness is what God wants. Yet God wants forgivenenss to be given in the appropriate manner.
“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3
Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgiving Others
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Your inability to understand almost every topic that is raised at TOL is dangerous. :kookoo:
No. You are not reading my posts very carefully.
Let me spell it out for you.
Ultimately we are debating whether or not Luke 23:34 is a good proof text for the doctrine of forgiving WITHOUT repentance.
So lets review....
Here is what we know for sure....
Jesus didn't ask the Father to forgive the Roman soldiers for anything BUT the stuff they were unaware of. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking the Father to forgive them of the sin they WERE aware of. This very fact proves my point I have been making all along which is Luke 23:34 is not a good proof text for claiming we should forgive without repentance.
Furthermore... we don't even know for sure if God forgave the Roman soldiers for the stuff they were unaware of and therefore makes the verse even weaker for using it in such a manner.
adajos
New member
Knight:
I agree.
Firstly, would Christ ask the Father to do something that He wouldn't do? Christ had the power to forgive sins Himself, it's quite clear from the NT. Surely Christ had forgiven the Roman soldiers Himself, because it would be quite bizarre for Him to ask the Father to do something He was unwilling to do Himself. So I think your objection of not being sure whether they were forgiven is false. I've pointed this out before and you didn't respond....
However, I think your whole dichotomy of the Roman soldiers' sin into two different sins---the sin they knew and the sin they didn't know--and for forgiving them for only one part of the same act is highly questionable at best.
There is no good reason to believe that when Christ said "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do" that He really meant "forgive them for the sin of executing the me, the Son of God, but don't forgive them for executing a person they know is innocent". That's quite a stretch, built on sheer speculation, not on what the Bible says.
Bottom line: I see no insinuation from the words of Christ or from the rest of Luke 23 that imply the Roman soldiers committed any sin other than ignorantly executing Christ. Whether they knew He was innocent or not is nothing but speculation--it does not say they were aware of it, nor does it say that it was a separate sin they committed.
I think your notion of two distinct sins in the same act that needed separate forgiveness from God is only in your head, not in the Bible.
You make your case based upon:
But that verse in no way mentions that the soldiers were there when Pilate said he committed no crime. For all we know Pilate gave the order for His crucifixion, and the soldiers were woken up and told to follow his orders. They might not have known any of what had transpired during the trial.
I agree.
Firstly, would Christ ask the Father to do something that He wouldn't do? Christ had the power to forgive sins Himself, it's quite clear from the NT. Surely Christ had forgiven the Roman soldiers Himself, because it would be quite bizarre for Him to ask the Father to do something He was unwilling to do Himself. So I think your objection of not being sure whether they were forgiven is false. I've pointed this out before and you didn't respond....
However, I think your whole dichotomy of the Roman soldiers' sin into two different sins---the sin they knew and the sin they didn't know--and for forgiving them for only one part of the same act is highly questionable at best.
There is no good reason to believe that when Christ said "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do" that He really meant "forgive them for the sin of executing the me, the Son of God, but don't forgive them for executing a person they know is innocent". That's quite a stretch, built on sheer speculation, not on what the Bible says.
Bottom line: I see no insinuation from the words of Christ or from the rest of Luke 23 that imply the Roman soldiers committed any sin other than ignorantly executing Christ. Whether they knew He was innocent or not is nothing but speculation--it does not say they were aware of it, nor does it say that it was a separate sin they committed.
I think your notion of two distinct sins in the same act that needed separate forgiveness from God is only in your head, not in the Bible.
You make your case based upon:
But that verse in no way mentions that the soldiers were there when Pilate said he committed no crime. For all we know Pilate gave the order for His crucifixion, and the soldiers were woken up and told to follow his orders. They might not have known any of what had transpired during the trial.
Uh.... yes. Yes He would and yes he did....
He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” - Matthew 26:39
Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” - Matthew 26:42
I disagree completely.
I think the text is very clear.
But hey, you can think whatever you like.
Are you saying the Roman soldiers weren't aware that Pilate had stated in public....
So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.” - Luke 23:4
I would say I just proved you wrong on that.
LOL... :chuckle: OK my man.... if you want to believe that....have at it!
I think we have beat this topic to death.
Personally I think you failed miserably to make your point (which is weak in the first place). But it was an interesting volley none the less.
So... do you have any other biblical evidence to suggest we should forgive without repentance?