Forced Vaccination is Wrong

[elohiym]

The link shows that mercury concerns have been around for a long time and have been researched and found to be safe.

From the EPA:

Health effects of mercury. Mercury exposure at high levels can harm the brain, heart, kidneys, lungs, and immune system of people of all ages. Research shows that most people's fish consumption does not cause a health concern. However, it has been demonstrated that high levels of methylmercury in the bloodstream of unborn babies and young children may harm the developing nervous system, making the child less able to think and learn.​

You are actually at greater risk of mercury poisoning from eating sashimi (raw fish) than you are from getting a vaccination.

Ingestion versus injection. The EPA suggest:

To enjoy the benefits of eating fish while minimizing exposure to mercury, you should:

• eat mainly types of fish low in mercury, and
• limit your consumption of types of fish with typically higher levels of mercury.

 

[CabinetMaker]

From the EPA:

Health effects of mercury. Mercury exposure at high levels can harm the brain, heart, kidneys, lungs, and immune system of people of all ages. Research shows that most people's fish consumption does not cause a health concern. However, it has been demonstrated that high levels of methylmercury in the bloodstream of unborn babies and young children may harm the developing nervous system, making the child less able to think and learn.​

Good start. Now post the rest of the article where it discusses the actual levels that are known to be harmful and compare those against the levels found in a typical shot.

Ingestion versus injection. The EPA suggest:

To enjoy the benefits of eating fish while minimizing exposure to mercury, you should:

• eat mainly types of fish low in mercury, and
• limit your consumption of types of fish with typically higher levels of mercury.

When my wife was pregnant we were advised that she should not eat raw fish due to possible mercury contamination. Mercury is one of the few substances that can cross the placenta into the baby so avoiding mercury during pregnancy is a good idea. We didn't. Her mom ate plenty of sashimi when she was pregnant with my wife, indeed, all of Japan eats raw fish during pregnancy, and all were fine. Caution today is probably warranted as mercury levels in the ocean are on the rise.

 

[fzappa13]

Do you honestly think you are bringing a new point of view to this very old debate? The link shows that mercury concerns have been around for a long time and have been researched and found to be safe. You are actually at greater risk of mercury poisoning from eating sashimi (raw fish) than you are from getting a vaccination.

Right, that's why they took it out of everything but the flu vaccine. It was just for grins. Didn't have anything else better to do.

... and I'll bet you prefer your fish from the west coast as well ... having been assured by the authorities you choose that everything is hunky dory with the fishing industry there as well.

Ever hear of Fukushima, Alfred E. Newman?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Right, that's why they took it out of everything but the flu vaccine. It was just for grins. Didn't have anything else better to do.

They have found other preservatives that work equally well but the Thimerosal is still found to be the best preservative for certain fish.

... and I'll bet you prefer your fish from the west coast as well ... having been assured by the authorities you choose that everything is hunky dory with the fishing industry there as well.

Honestly, not sure where our fish come from. We get it from one of two Asian markets in Denver. If I special order from King Soopers they have a very nice sashimi grade tuna.

Ever hear of Fukushima, Alfred E. Newman?

Yes. Fresh caught fish are per-iradiated! Pretty cool, huh.

 

[Granite]

How's the pro typhoid and polio crowd doing these days?

 

[elohiym]

How's the pro typhoid and polio crowd doing these days?

How's the too lazy or forgetful to get a flu shot guy doing these days?

 

[Granite]

How's the too lazy or forgetful to get a flu shot guy doing these days?

So unchanged, I see.:chuckle:

(Once in twelve years, by the way. Oh: And they work.) Still a big fan of polio, then? Glad to see it. Wanna take a dip in an infected pool? I'm good to go, how's by you?

 

[Tyrathca]

For any coerced, mass medication program it's inexcusable to force it without proper screening. It would still be a horrible idea to crush liberty, though, and wouldn't fix the ethics problem of force. It also wouldn't eliminate the problems in quality that can harm children.

But what constitutes proper screening? I don't think this qualifies.

PKU is a screening test that is painfully traumatic for little newborn babies - invasive - and for a vanishingly rare genetic condition.

I know what the PKU screening test is and your description of it is an extreme exaggeration.

Can buy politicians and legislation. And exert undue influence.

And once again we have you claiming a 24 billion dollar industry is funding and motivating mass corruption of health departments on a global scale without being caught.

Do you feel safe about eating irradiated food?

Yes though I'm sure you will claim yet another conspiracy hiding its dangers too...

So you don't believe the factory farmers are protecting their business model? I see. Do you think factory farm milk is good for you? Don't you think they have an interest in killing their competition?

I don't think the factory farmers have the level of control of scientific research and government ubiquitously around the globe that you suggest. Neither do I think vaccine producers do.

Dude, are you going to tell me that private company board meetings that concern how to increase profits in the short term are things of myth? How do you think Tylenol purposefully kept selling dirty infant liquid Tylenol to our families for over a year? What else might they be hiding? Am I really so crazy for being suspicious?

Of course I think they look at how to maximise profits, sometimes by cutting corners which is where effective government regulation comes in. You are crazy to think they control the worlds health departments and scientific research so well.

No, because medicine can just sit there and rot of disuse when not needed --- unless we let them force us around. Let us call the shots on our own health individually - and we can all get along.

This is about calling the shots on children, you can make your own decisions on yourself as an individual and always have been able to (even if those decisions are stupid).

 

[1PeaceMaker]

But what constitutes proper screening? I don't think this qualifies.

So you think that screening for PKU is legitimate even though I'm more likely to have triplets than a child with this disorder?

I know what the PKU screening test is and your description of it is an extreme exaggeration.

I've seen it administered. It was really obviously painful for the baby and shocking for both of us. Had it been administered in a dangerous dirty hospital there would have been risks from the infectious environment, too.

And once again we have you claiming a 24 billion dollar industry is funding and motivating mass corruption of health departments on a global scale without being caught.

Seriously, it's corrupt when vaccines are forced, so there's corruption right there. And when you have lobbyists funded by pharma to push vaccination, there you go. Open corruption; easy. And being paid or financially motivated to look the other way is what happens all the time. You know that. And now we have the USA on a road map to make the vaccine makers billions more... they are trying to push pregnant women and adults into vaccination now.

Yes though I'm sure you will claim yet another conspiracy hiding its dangers too...

And I'm sure you don't think you are in any health danger from cell phones, right? Wifi fine? Fukushima under control? Use a microwave too? And I suppose we still have low fuel efficiency because it's for the good of the people, not the corporations, right?

I don't think the factory farmers have the level of control of scientific research and government ubiquitously around the globe that you suggest. Neither do I think vaccine producers do.

I get it. You feel that corporations are actually held accountable for putting the people and the earth at risk and you probably think they are too scared to cut corners and kill people to make more money, right?

Of course I think they look at how to maximise profits, sometimes by cutting corners which is where effective government regulation comes in.

Effective regulation??? :crackup:

You are crazy to think they control the worlds health departments and scientific research so well.

Yet we can see many kinds of corporations making sweet deals so problems will quickly go away, papers get withdrawn - you can think what you like but I see your Great Barrier Reef. I see what happens when governments do their effective oversight.

This is about calling the shots on children, you can make your own decisions on yourself as an individual and always have been able to (even if those decisions are stupid).

Government shouldn't be calling the shots this way. They are going to try to mandate the mass medication of children with corrupt corporations who make drugs that kill people. All the time!

Think about all the drugs that have been fingered as having killed trusting people. All the withdrawals from the market after sorry is too late.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So you think that screening for PKU is legitimate even though I'm more likely to have triplets than a child with this disorder?



I've seen it administered. It was really obviously painful for the baby and shocking for both of us. Had it been administered in a dangerous dirty hospital there would have been risks from the infectious environment, too.

Its a blood test. The blood is drawn from the heel with a heel stick like a finger stick you get at the doctors. Makes babies scream but it's not invasive and a routine procedure for babies. I remember our daughters getting a heel stick for routine blood tests.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Its a blood test. The blood is drawn from the heel with a heel stick like a finger stick you get at the doctors. Makes babies scream but it's not invasive and a routine procedure for babies. I remember our daughters getting a heel stick for routine blood tests.

I'm well aware of that, but to wet 3 card circles with blood takes a bit of dirty work - it's very painful for the baby, and any breaking of skin carries risks in a clinical setting.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I realize that people who allow their children to be circumcised without pain medication may feel my take on PKU is harsh, but I consider genital mutilation to be an extraordinary amount of unreasonable torment. Babies have a very low pain threshold. They can go into a shock state while in overload that looks like sleep. That's not a good sign.

And the being held down for needle after needle, that's child abuse unless you believe it's the only reasonable way you can protect them. Which is ridiculous when you consider the low amount of risk for many of these communicable diseases in the first place.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Its a blood test. The blood is drawn from the heel with a heel stick like a finger stick you get at the doctors.

Not like a finger stick. Ever bled that much from your foot? It hurts like hell, way worse than a finger stick. More like a bumble-bee.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

If I was just injecting placebos and poking to get blood for amusement, that's criminal and immoral, right? Child abuse, right?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Not like a finger stick. Ever bled that much from your foot? It hurts like hell, way worse than a finger stick. More like a bumble-bee.

Yes, like a finger stick. It hurts to get poked and the baby doesn't like it. It doesn't like it when the nurse squeezes a bit to get more blood out. But it's not anywhere nearly as tramatic as you attempt to imply. Mom picks up the baby and snuggles it and it stops crying.

You have an Intersting problem here. On the one hand you are claiming that lack of testing before routine vaccinations puts kids at unnecessary risk while on the other hand you are claiming said test is to tramatic for kids.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Yes, like a finger stick. It hurts to get poked and the baby doesn't like it. It doesn't like it when the nurse squeezes a bit to get more blood out. But it's not anywhere nearly as tramatic as you attempt to imply. Mom picks up the baby and snuggles it and it stops crying.

I was breastfeeding my firstborn for the heel poke. She totally freaked. She was on my lap when it done and it took time to settle her. The heel often has to be re-lanced even if it's done right. My oldest son recently stepped on a finishing nail and we tried to get it to bleed to clean out the wound. It was almost in vain, because the heel skin likes to reseal fast. We got less blood out than for a PKU test. And it hurt him for days. He did not get an infection, though, because he's a healthy kid. There is no doubt in my mind, the manipulation of the foot makes it hurt worse. It's a mess.

You have an Intersting problem here. On the one hand you are claiming that lack of testing before routine vaccinations puts kids at unnecessary risk while on the other hand you are claiming said test is to tramatic for kids.

Yes, you might think of it as a problem, unless you are like me and already feel that it's ridiculous to prevent disease in that reckless fashion. It's like giving antibiotics to your farm poultry instead of just doing a better job taking care of them.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I was breastfeeding my firstborn for the heel poke. She totally freaked. She was on my lap when it done and it took time to settle her. The heel often has to be re-lanced even if it's done right. My oldest son recently stepped on a finishing nail and we tried to get it to bleed to clean out the wound. It was almost in vain, because the heel skin likes to reseal fast. We got less blood out than for a PKU test. And it hurt him for days. He did not get an infection, though, because he's a healthy kid. There is no doubt in my mind, the manipulation of the foot makes it hurt worse. It's a mess.



Yes, you might think of it as a problem, unless you are like me and already feel that it's ridiculous to prevent disease in that reckless fashion. It's like giving antibiotics to your farm poultry instead of just doing a better job taking care of them.

I don't know how old your son was when he stepped on a nail but I'm guessing he wasn't a newborn. I'm also fairly sure his heel was somewhat tougher than a newborns.
Given that rose diseases have potential life long and even fatal consequences, my attitude regarding their prevention is somewhat less cavalier than yours.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I don't know how old your son was when he stepped on a nail but I'm guessing he wasn't a newborn.

No, he certainly wasn't but the newborn's foot being so small it makes the incision and blood loss proportionately bigger. My son also reports to this day that the poke of the nail hurt "way worse" than a bee sting (we keep bees now and then and our garden has bumblebees too, many kinds of stinging critters in our yard...)

I'm also fairly sure his heel was somewhat tougher than a newborns.

I don't really see the relevance, because my son also has a much higher pain tolerance than a newborn.

Given that rose diseases have potential life long and even fatal consequences, my attitude regarding their prevention is somewhat less cavalier than yours.

I'm not being cavalier, I'm trying to point out something to Ty who was claiming that it would be too much invasive trouble to add that vaccine vulnerability screen to the baby schedule. Do you understand my point? If we will be serious about a risk like the rose diseases, being so rare and all, then why not equally serious about the risks from vaccine vulnerability? That's not asking too much at all, considering the stakes are just as high in that category, being also life long or fatal in nature.

(If vaccines are to be forced, or even chosen freely, it's unreasonable to not also first screen for all known potential contraindications first.)

 

[Tyrathca]

So you think that screening for PKU is legitimate even though I'm more likely to have triplets than a child with this disorder?

I haven't done a literature review on the data for it's effectiveness but the gist of what I've seen on a quick search is that it is legitimate although the initial implementation wasn't well planned in some places. The main reasons being its a decent screening test and the alternative way of detecting generally involves waiting for clinical signs (in which case most will have some degree of irreversible brain injury).

I'm not sure why you think comparisons to triplet rates says anything about it's legitimacy. The rates of triplets is only twice that of PKU anyway.

I've seen it administered. It was really obviously painful for the baby and shocking for both of us. Had it been administered in a dangerous dirty hospital there would have been risks from the infectious environment, too.

Oh? I've seen heel pricks where more blood than just the few dots was needed for the screening was needed. That would have been worse and I still say you're exaggerating. It is EXTREMELY low risk given that it is is very small puncture which seals quickly there is little opportunity for contamination. The main risk would be from the lancet, these should be non-reusable, be placed in the appropriate locations and be designed to be shallow (i.e. not the adult ones). As for pain from what I've seen they are generally pretty easy for mothers to sooth afterwards, especially with breastfeeding and being wrapped up warm. If mums not available then a finger to suck +/- some sucrose works wonders.

Seriously, it's corrupt when vaccines are forced, so there's corruption right there.

You think that's unethical but that is not 'corruption", especially not int he context it is being used here.

And when you have lobbyists funded by pharma to push vaccination, there you go. Open corruption; easy. And being paid or financially motivated to look the other way is what happens all the time. You know that. And now we have the USA on a road map to make the vaccine makers billions more... they are trying to push pregnant women and adults into vaccination now.

And again you essentially saying that elected officials of EVERY developed nation are being bribed and "persuaded" by pharmaceutical dollars to alter health policy. Or the civil service officials running those departments the themselves are being directly bribed (how would those un-elected people be financially motivated?). If that's the case the lack of significant scandals regarding this entrenched corruption is surprising - perhaps not if we were just talking about the USA but the whole rest of the world it is.

Government shouldn't be calling the shots this way. They are going to try to mandate the mass medication of children with corrupt corporations who make drugs that kill people. All the time!

You've strayed from vaccines into the effectiveness of governance within modern developed nations which whether right or wrong says nothing about whether this particular action taken by all of them (despite their diversities) is actually warranted or beneficial.

Think about all the drugs that have been fingered as having killed trusting people. All the withdrawals from the market after sorry is too late.

You're right, we should just stop using all medicines because none of it can be trusted. None of them work anyway I presume 1PM?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I'm not sure why you think comparisons to triplet rates says anything about it's legitimacy. The rates of triplets is only twice that of PKU anyway.

You just defeated your earlier argument against screening for vaccine damage risks. Thanks. I'm not anti-PKU, BTW. I fail to see why I need it for my family, considering what you said, though. I mean, if you won't support thorough screening for risk of vaccine reactions, I don't need to take the PKU test for my newborns and they'd love to avoid the pain and inconvenience, anyway.

That was a test for your logic. If you support that, you should support the other thing I suggested.

You think that's unethical but that is not 'corruption", especially not int he context it is being used here.

I think it is, especially when you consider the revolving doors of politics and business. It's called Fascism.

You're right, we should just stop using all medicines because none of it can be trusted. None of them work anyway I presume 1PM?

You shouldn't be forced to take those medications. Business gets corrupted into Fascism that way.