SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
They will preach to all nations after the Son of Man be come.
For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
- Thread starter chickenman
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Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
They will preach to all nations after the Son of Man be come.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Sorry Randy, I will bow out of this thread.
Got drawn in again...
Got drawn in again...
No problem, STP. 
For MidActs Dispensationalists of all flavors, what are the doctrines that you see as most important? And why? Specifically, I'm referring to doctrines that are most identifiable with MidActs Dispensationalism.
I believe the most important doctrines overall are:
What do you say?
Randy
I believe the most important doctrines overall are:
- The gospel of Christ, which is the power of salvation unto all
- Baptism by the Spirit into Christ, and understanding what that means
What do you say?
Randy
Hi, madman. I hope all's well in your neck o' the woods.
I've detailed this very thing earlier in the thread. So I'll just overview it here.
In a nutshell, the gospels show Israel being prepared for the coming judgment and coming kingdom. And after Jesus ascends to the right hand of the Father and the Spirit being poured out, prophecy continues to unfold on schedule. Everything that happens early in Acts fits within the context of prophecy about Israel's foretold earthly kingdom. The apostles and disciples even sell everything they have, per Jesus command in Luke 12, in preparation for the coming kingdom. In other words, there's nothing unforetold happening in early Acts. Whereas the dispensation of grace was a mystery.
I think the most clear thing is what Peter says. He tells the audience at Pentecost that what was going on was what was foretold by Joel. And what Joel foretold was that the outpouring of the Spirit was the beginning of the end.
So I see no evidence whatsoever of a dispensation of grace beginning at Pentecost. I only see the continued fulfillment of prophecy pertaining to Israel, judgment, and the kingdom.
I can elaborate more if you like, by either referencing specific posts in this thread or by starting from scratch. Either is fine with me. Just let me know what you'd like.
Thanks for asking the question, mm!
Randy
madman
New member
Sore and a little thinner
I will try and find it, thanks!
Thanks, bro!
We just finished Romans, and getting ready to go through the book of Acts.
I know that one of the questions coming up will be how to reconcile what Christ accomplished on the cross, not being a reality just because it wasn't revealed. Do you see what I mean by that?
Oh yeah! P90X, right? Sounds like it's going well.Sore and a little thinner
Okay. When I get some time later, I'll dig around for some reference posts.
I'm not sure. Can you clarify what you mean about it not being a reality?
I'll be tied up for a bit today, but will check back in here as soon as I can later on.
Later!
Randy
madman
New member
No hurry, busy myself today.
The sin issue was finished at the cross. The law was nailed to it. How did salvation by grace through faith baptize Paul into the BoC and not Peter, Stephen, etc? Even if it was a mystery revealed, logistically it was already accomplished.
Before I take off, how about trying on posts 87, 100, 8, 30, and 60? They pertain to Pentecost and Acts. Maybe they'll help a little.
Back to check in later.
Randy
Back to check in later.
Randy
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
madman,
According to the original teaching of Mid Acts dispensationalism what Christ accomplished on the Cross was a reality at the time of the day of Pentecost. The sins of those under the First Testament were redeemed:
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).
This verse is referring to the "sins that are past" referred to here:
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiatory through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Ro.3:25).
On the day of Pentecost Peter used the facts of the Lord Jesus' resurrection and then summed up His sermon in the following way:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
Those who believed this were "born of God" and saved the moment when they believed:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him" (1 Jn.5:11).
The Jews who believed were saved by "grace," the same way that the Gentile believers are saved. Here Peter states that fact:
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11; NIV).
Since the Jewish believers were saved by "grace" it is obvious that works had nothing to do with their salvation because "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive.
If you have any questions I will attempt to answer them for you.
In His grace,
Jerry
Technically, Acts 9 is the change, so there would be no difference in Pentecost. You can't prove a negative.
But you could also point out Peter full of the Holy Spirit saying Christ was resurected to sit upon David's throne. In accordance with Ezekiel 37 and John 3.
He said to stop their sinning and be water baptised into the priesthood, and their sins would be blotted out at a later date.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Howdy madman,
That's a good question. If Christ died for Peter's sins, just like he did for Paul, then why wasn't Peter in the Body of Christ like Paul?
I think the answer is that Peter was in good standing concerning the promises made unto the fathers concerning the King and the Kingdom. Jesus had said that he would "lay down his life for his friends". Peter was a "friend".
Here's Paul, persecuting the church of God, blaspheming, and the fiercest enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ. He would not be included in the New Covenant promise to Israel. The only way God could save him was identify him in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.
According to covenant promises, Peter's sins were paid for on the cross, but they would not be blotted out until the day of atonement at the 2nd coming. That's when he would be saved. Although Christ died for Peter's sins, he was not identified in the death, burial, and resurrection.
The fact that there is a group of people identified in the d,b,r was a mystery.
It was a transition period where there was a Jewish church (friends) operating under the promises made unto the father looking forward to the kingdom and their salvation...and another church (former enemies) made up of Jews, Greeks, and alien Gentiles looking back to the cross and being identified with the d,b,r. They do not look forward to the king and kingdom for their salvation (those promises do not include them).
That's the best I can explain....maybe Randy can add more when he gets back.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is another error made by those in the Neo-MAD community. According to them Peter's salvation remains in the future. But what does Peter himself say about this?:
"Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:9).
First of all, the Greek word telos is translated "end", and that word means "the aim, purpose " (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Therefore, Peter's words mean "receiving the purpose of your faith, the salvation of your souls". Here is another translation of the same verse:
"...obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:9; NASB).
Secondly, the Greek word komizo is translated "receiving", and it is in the present tense. If the salvation remains in the future then Peter would not use the word "receiving", but he does. If those
If the teaching within the Neo-MAD camp is correct then Peter would have said, "You will receive the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." But that is not what he said.
According to Peter his salvation is already accomplished and he states in no uncertain terms that that salvation is on the principle of "grace":
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11; NIV).
Since the Jewish believers were saved by "grace" it is obvious that works had nothing to do with their salvation because "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive. This proves that the Neo-MAD teaching that the Jews had to do works to be saved is also incorrect.
In His grace,
Jerry
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Sincere Inquisitors,
What Peter said is crystal clear. It takes a lot smoke & mirrors to mess this up.
1 Peter 1
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10: Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13: Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
You can't just pluck verse 9 out of the passage, you must pay attention to what goes before and what goes after.
You cannot receive the "end of your faith" while your faith is still "on trial".
I can't do any better. I'll just back it with some additional thoughts.
Prophecy shows Messiah being cut off after 69 weeks (Dan. 9:25-26). But the entire 70 weeks would need to be fulfilled in order to:
- make an end of sins
- make reconciliation for iniquity
- bring in everlasting righteousness
The author of Hebrews quotes Jer. 31, which says about the new covenant for Israel and Judah:
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Heb. 8:12 cf. Jer. 31:34
The author then makes that point that by "new" (in "new covenant") , the previous one becomes "old". But they were still operating under the "old", as of the time of the writing of Hebrews. For he says:
In that he saith, "A new covenant", he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb. 8:13
So that was the deal for Peter et al. Christ's sacrifice was absolutely effective for the blotting out of their sins. It only needed to be done once. And with Him taking care of that after the 69th week, the only thing they needed was to enter into the new covenant in their promised kingdom when Jesus would return, and they would actually experience it and be made eternally righteous.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb. 9:28
That's how I see it. Does that help at all?
For everyone reading this...
I've said this before, and it's something that a few seem to have a real struggle with for whatever bizarre reason, as if they can't bear a thread without some form of debate. This thread is just for informative purposes. I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. So if we work through this or any other issue and you ultimately conclude differently, then that's your prerogative. You won't get any argument from me. I hope you'll reciprocate.
Thanks,
Randy
:up:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:up: Very clear. We just need to drop the labels, drop the reliance on the "MAD" fathers as authoritative, and just believe what is written, let the chips fall where they fall.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
All I have done as a Mid Acts believer is to do exactly what Randy said to do at another place:
He asks if there is any disgreements and I have shown my disagreements. So nothing is bizarre about what I have done. Now let us look at where I disagree with the teaching of those in the Neo-MAD camp:
Randy fails to understand that the promises under the New Covenant promised to Israel are "nationalistic" in nature. They will be fulfilled to Israel as a whole, as the following verses indicate:
"...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).
If Randy was right that sins could not be forgiven for individuals in Israel until the New Covenant was in place then why did the Apostle Peter say the following to those who received his first epistle?:
"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Pet.2:12).
Those in the Neo-MAD community need to learn to distinguish between the things in regard to the nation of Israel as a whole and the things in regard to individual Jews.
In an address to the Evangelical Theological Society Howard W. Ferrin quoted Dean Alford's commentary on Romans 11:24-27 where Alford says that Paul "is dealing with 'nations'--with Gentile nations, and the Jewish nation. Thus dealing, he speaks of the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, and of all Israel being saved: having 'no regard' for the time of the 'individual' destinies of the Gentiles or the Jews, but regarding 'nations' as each included under the common bond of consanguinity, according to the flesh" (Howard W. Ferrin, "All Israel Shall Be Saved," Bibliotheca Sacra 112 [July, 1955], 241).
In His grace,
Jerry
M. K. Nawojski
New member
I say, in Eph. 4:1-6, Paul beseeches members of the Body of Christ to walk worthy of their (third-heavenly) calling by meekly, patiently, and lovingly endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. The apostle then lists precisely seven dispensationally-distinctive “ones” which IMO comprise or “encapsulate” this unity which we are responsible to keep today: i.e., one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.
I believe we are to strive mightily to understand/internalize all 66 books of the Protestant Bible (which are for our learning, thus necessary for our overall spiritual growth/progress)—but to especially keep/honor and proclaim/defend the doctrines related to these seven "ones" (which are to be found in the Pauline epistles, thus are directly to and for us). To begin keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace—as we’re commanded to do—we would need to understand at least the following:
The one Body: comprised of regenerated/converted individuals without regard to ethnic, gender, societal/cultural, and/or slave/free distinctions, who are—each and every one—indispensable and equal. As members of this Body, we need to know when/how it began, how it operates, and when/how it will end.
The one Spirit: the Holy Spirit Who regenerates us, baptizes us into Christ, drives us to the Word for nourishment/growth, intercedes for us in prayer, and (at the Rapture-Battle) will “quicken” our dead bodies, causing them to resurrect in incorruptibility and power.
The one Hope: in eternity, under the Headship of Christ, to dwell in the third-heaven and jointly-rule the created order.
The one Lord: Jesus Christ Who, more than 2000 years ago, poured out His soul unto death on a Roman execution stake—in our place, on our behalf, as our surety and substitute—in order to pay our sin debt in full, to justify us once-and-for-all-time before God, to provide for us a positive righteousness, and to present us to Himself as a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but standing holy and without blemish in Him.
The one Faith: the spiritual gift of God, comprised within the “new nature,” which enables the believer today to apply the grammatical-historical hermeneutic to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, to recognize the three dispensations set forth therein, (i.e., the Gentile dispensation, the Jewish dispensation, and the Mystery or Body dispensation), and to identify the Mystery/Body dispensation as the one now in force—thus distinguishing Paul’s gospel/law/hope as that which is to be honored in his own life.
The one Baptism: the operation of God, in which the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ—identifying us with Christ in His death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating in the third-heaven—thus creating an eternal “vertical” bond between Christ and each member of His Body, and an eternal “horizontal” bond among all the joint-members, one with another.
The one God: the Father, Whose “inheritance” we are because He (in love) chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, thus deliberately purposing to not spare his own Son but to deliver him up for us all—and, with Him, to also freely give us all things necessary for our spiritual growth, e.g., faith, love, repentance, understanding of the Scriptures, etc., thereby fitting us to dwell, in eternity, within “the inapproachable light,” as His inheritance.
May each blood-bought saint be diligent to search the Scriptures and see whether these things be so.
MK