For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

FineLinen

Well-known member
Dear beloved57: You and Nanja are a joy.

The large ego that pervades some of those "elect", is the foundation for radical adjustment. God is the Saviour of all mankind, with that wee word "especially/malista". He is not the Saviour of ONLY/monon those who believe/trust IN Him; He is the Saviour of all mankind. Preach this & teach this.

You say He is the Saviour of the elect, but alas He is the Saviour of ALL/pas mankind. That my friend is the radical all/pas.

But wait, there is more!

From Him the ta panta comes, through Him the ta panta exists, and in Him the ta panta ends..
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I dont have time for the rabbit trail

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
He is directly addressing your position. Calling it a rabbit trail only shows how belligerent you are in your beliefs. It shows you are not here to discuss, but to proselytize for Calvinism.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
He is directly addressing your position. Calling it a rabbit trail only shows how belligerent you are in your beliefs. It shows you are not here to discuss, but to proselytize for Calvinism.

Judging from the OP please explain my position ! Do you want to discuss it ?
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Yes and they are under the condemnation of the devil 1 Tim 3:6


True, just as the devil's pride of wanting to be like God Is. 14:14, likewise his seed also Mat. 13:38b have lifted up their hearts against God's Salvation by His Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9, and tout the power of their own freewill choice to believe for salvation in their flesh and mind. However, their efforts are futile, for the reason they can't believe in Him is because they were already condemned John 3:18, 36 and under the same condemnation as their spiritual father.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
True, just as the devil's pride of wanting to be like God Is. 14:14, likewise his seed also Mat. 13:38b have lifted up their hearts against God's Salvation by His Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9, and tout the power of their own freewill choice to believe for salvation in their flesh and mind. However, their efforts are futile, for the reason they can't believe in Him is because they were already condemned John 3:18, 36 and under the same condemnation as their spiritual father.
Amen and very well thought out and communicated.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

Derf

Well-known member
He is directly addressing your position. Calling it a rabbit trail only shows how belligerent you are in your beliefs. It shows you are not here to discuss, but to proselytize for Calvinism.

There's no such thing as "proselytizing" for Calvinism. Anyone that might be proselytized were inevitably going to get there, and in fact were already there from the foundation of the earth.

Don't you believe in "original spin"?
 

GregoryN

New member
Paul didn't say "all in Christ shall be made alive". He said "in Christ shall all be made alive". Who are the "all" of the parallel statement in the first half of the parallel:

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

How many human beings does the "all" in "in Adam all" die refer to? All mankind.

Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) when all the dead in the lake of fire are made alive in Christ (v.22) and God becomes all in all (v28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be subjected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be ALL in ALL..."
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Paul didn't say "all in Christ shall be made alive". He said "in Christ shall all be made alive". Who are the "all" of the parallel statement in the first half of the parallel:

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

How many human beings does the "all" in "in Adam all" die refer to? All mankind.

Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) when all the dead in the lake of fire are made alive in Christ (v.22) and God becomes all in all (v28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be subjected unto the Son. The only exception in this
subjection is God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be ALL in ALL..."
In Christ. Thats His Church, The Sheep

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

Derf

Well-known member
I dont have time for the rabbit trail

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Why do you start a thread where you DON'T want anyone to respond, except to glorify you for your brilliance in expounding on doctrines you can't support enough to even engage in conversation with those who don't agree with you, much less those who might even agree with you to some extent?

Let not many be teachers... (James 3:1)

If you had read the whole post, you would have realized that I agreed with you that the textual "all" in the first case meant all humanity, and the "all" in the second case meant ONLY those that were in Christ. I followed it with some discussion of why that would be the case and what that would mean.

But you aren't interested in dialog, as [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION] pointed out, you're only interested in teaching, and, I suppose, incurring the greater condemnation. And you're welcome to it!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Why do you start a thread where you DON'T want anyone to respond, except to glorify you for your brilliance in expounding on doctrines you can't support enough to even engage in conversation with those who don't agree with you, much less those who might even agree with you to some extent?

Let not many be teachers... (James 3:1)

If you had read the whole post, you would have realized that I agreed with you that the textual "all" in the first case meant all humanity, and the "all" in the second case meant ONLY those that were in Christ. I followed it with some discussion of why that would be the case and what that would mean.

But you aren't interested in dialog, as [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION] pointed out, you're only interested in teaching, and, I suppose, incurring the greater condemnation. And you're welcome to it!
You can respond. Have you read the Op? Let's discuss that, the points i made. Thats what i started the thread for.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

Derf

Well-known member
Paul didn't say "all in Christ shall be made alive". He said "in Christ shall all be made alive". Who are the "all" of the parallel statement in the first half of the parallel:

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

How many human beings does the "all" in "in Adam all" die refer to? All mankind.

Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) when all the dead in the lake of fire are made alive in Christ (v.22) and God becomes all in all (v28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be subjected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be ALL in ALL..."

What do you think would happen to anyone that is made alive again, but won't follow Christ? If death is overcome, what else is there to do with them?
 

GregoryN

New member
What do you think would happen to anyone that is made alive again, but won't follow Christ? If death is overcome, what else is there to do with them?

IMO, Derf, the making alive is as Christ (the firstfruit of all to be made alive, v.23) was made alive, i.e. unto immortality & incorruption.
 

Derf

Well-known member
You can respond.
I did.
Have you read the Op?
Yes.
Let's discuss that, the points i made.
I did.
Thats what i started the thread for.
Apparently not.




But in case I got the wrong impression...

Here's the 2-cent summary of the OP:
... its only specifying mankind in Christ, which isnt inclusive of the children of the devil or of the wicked one.

Here's my response, where I actually agreed with you. I highlighted some things to keep you from dismissing them like you did last time:
I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that the "all" in each case envelops every person in each case. The "all in Adam" is all of humanity, as all came from him. The "all in Christ" is all that are in him, all christianity (assuming the name is only applied where it really fits). Both "alls" are universal--applying to everybody that is included in Adam's or Jesus' group. But the second is also exclusive, NOT applying to some people (those that are NOT "in Christ").

And here's the part where I discussed your OP, but you didn't get that far. Would you like me to break it up into single-sentence soundbites?
But since the descendancy or hierarchy (which seems to fit better) of Christ to His "offspring", or body, is not the same as that of Adam to his offspring, the same rules don't necessarily apply. Weren't there, in fact, many who did NOT believe in Christ at the time of His death (of those who were alive then) who later believed? And of course, all of us alive today were not "in Christ" at one time, then were born "out of Christ" and later were re-introduced to Christ.

In fact, the passage seems to be talking only about existing persons. So unless you existed prior to being born (and born in sin, if you believe in total depravity), then the "all" can't apply to you, except in a future sense (at the time of Christ's death), and if in a "future sense", then you WEREN'T "in Christ" at the time of His death. You were only there as a representation.

Now, if you were there only as a representation, then it makes plenty of sense that Christ's death could be applied to your account, even before you were there to benefit from it, but there's still the issue of what event caused that representation to be applicable to you. Was it merely 1) the event of the Christ's death? Or was it 2) the event of you believing in Christ? Or was it 3) the event of a decision made before the foundation of the world.

If #1, then it must apply to all men, period, at least all men that were around at the time of Christ or have existed afterward.
If #2, then it must apply only to those who believe in Christ.
If #3, then it only applies to those who are chosen before the foundation of the world. But that then results in the question of whether you were saved NOT by the death of Christ, but by the decision made before the foundation of the world--and if you are saved by something else other than the death of Christ, aren't you relying on a different "good news"--a different gospel?

Finally, if we assume that the "in Christ" means somehow we are saved before we are born, then we are saved before we are "lost", and it denigrates the power of Christ to actually save us permanently. Or it suggests that the two are not opposite states, and thus one can be both "saved" and "unsaved" at the same time. I hope that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me.

So how is it that we can be "chosen from the foundation of the world" and also not be saved at some point after the foundation of the world? Perhaps it is that we were chosen as part of the group that would be "in Christ" and not the group that was "in Christ" at the foundation of the world. If that is the case, then at any point in time, someone might be "added" to the "in Christ" group, and we wouldn't have to worry about how someone could be both "saved" and "unsaved" at the same time.

There. Now it's your turn to respond to what I wrote.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I did.
Yes.
I did.
Apparently not.




But in case I got the wrong impression...

Here's the 2-cent summary of the OP:


Here's my response, where I actually agreed with you. I highlighted some things to keep you from dismissing them like you did last time:


And here's the part where I discussed your OP, but you didn't get that far. Would you like me to break it up into single-sentence soundbites?


There. Now it's your turn to respond to what I wrote.
What's the points made a n d how did i make them.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 
Top