beloved57
Well-known member
So you have no answer, figures
Faith to believe on Christ !
- Thread starter beloved57
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I answered it in the only way it can be answered. If you'd actually read what I wrote and humble yourself just enough to actually look up what I told you to look up, you MIGHT be able to discern what it is I'm trying to tell you. Of the two of us, it is YOU who do not answer direct questions.
The question(s) makes no sense except from within your own theological paradigm. It cannot be answered without accepting YOUR premise. Therefore, it begs the question. It's very nearly the only type of argument Calvinists know how to make and I wasn't kidding when I said that it's the sort of tactic that cultist and con artists use. You really ought to sit back and think through why it is that you think that it's a valid argument and why it is that you aren't capable of presenting anything of any real substance.
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith to believe in Christ is not natural, its in fact a Spirit of Faith, its also like common to OT believers and NT believers, Paul writing to the Church in Corinth referenced an OT quote from the Psalms that inidicates that 2 Cor 4:13
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” II Cor.4:13.
Ps 116:10
10 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted:
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” II Cor.4:13.
Ps 116:10
10 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted:
Hury! Post something! Anything at all so that Clete's post isn't the last word on the thread for even one minute longer than it has to be! The more meaningless nonsense we post, the further his rational thoughts are buried into the thread so that maybe people won't see it!
Says the one who refuses to respond directly to any criticism of his beliefs...
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith being a Spiritual fruit, its not out of the natural man, but a purchase of the death of Christ, in that He purchased all Spiritual Blessings for His Church Eph 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ignoring us won't make the problems with your theology go away, B57.
It should be noted that the bible does indeed talk about various things being predestined. They aren't predestined in the same sense that Calvinists use the term. They've twisted that, just like they've twisted every other concept that pertains in anyway to doctrine and theology.
The things that have been predestined are things which pertain directly to God Himself and to groups of people, the passage in Ephesians 1, which is cited above, being an example of both, actually. The five sentences that b57 quotes have primarily to do with the Body of Christ but if you read the rest of the chapter you easily get that it's not just about those who come to Christ but about Christ Himself as well, and that it is He who is destined to glory and it is by virtue of the fact that we are IN HIM that this destiny pertains to us as well.
Let's read the rest of the passage where we'll see what Paul is actually trying to tell us....
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
There's not a lot of commentary that is needed here. What's being said is clear enough once you focus on what Paul himself emphasizes in the passage, that being that these things are true IN HIM, that is in Christ Jesus. If you are in Him then these things are predestined to come to pass for you. Notice also, in verses 13 and 14, that God gets Himself even more intimately involved in this by providing us the Holy Spirit of Promise as an earnest payment in advance of our full inheritance IN HIM.
On a side note, verse 13 is another verse that that Calvinist ignore and never ever quote because of the issues it raises with their rather silly conception of "regeneration". It is we who do the trusting and that happens after we are presented with the gospel and before being given His Spirit. It couldn't be more clear.
Moving on, lets read just two more sentences of Paul's epistle to the Ephesians...
Ephesisans1: 15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
So, there's two things I want to point out in this amazing portion of scripture (verses 15-21 is one of the most amazing sentences ever written in the history of language so there's a LOT more that could be said!)...First, verse 23 further cements the point that what Paul is talking about in this chapter isn't predestination in the Calvinist sense of the term. Paul isn't talking about particular individuals having been predestined before time began but rather he's talking about what is predestined to happen to those who find themselves in the Body of Christ. It is that body of believers, that group of people, that is predestined. If you join the group then the destiny of the group becomes your destiny as well.
Lastly, I wanted to address the idea of being "blessed with every spiritual blessing". B57, along with a great many other Christians (i.e. this is not a Calvinist error, per se) tend to take that phrase too far. Any time you see the word "all" or "every" used, you should be careful about taking it too literally because it's very often a figure of speech and Paul's use of it in Ephesians 1:3 is no exception. Paul is not suggesting here that every conceivable spiritual blessing has already been given to us, as b57 is clearly suggesting with his post. The proof of this is Paul's own prayer that he describes in verses 17 - 21. Paul prays to the Father on behalf of the believers in Ephesus that He would give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation, that their understanding be enlightened that they may know what is the hope of His calling, etc. All of that sounds like spiritual blessings to me! Right? Also, Paul, in other writings tells us plainly that he hasn't attained all there is to attain and is "pressing on toward the goal", etc, etc.
A similar figure of speech is used by Paul in Romans 11...
Romans 11: 26 And so all Israel will be saved,....
This verse is NOT teaching that every single Jew is going to be saved. That's not what it means because "all" almost never means "all" as in "every single one". In fact, it usually doesn't even mean "most". It's just a figure of speech that means "a lot" or "a significant portion of". So, just as "all" doesn't mean "all" and therefore Romans 11:26 isn't teaching that every single Jew will be saved, Ephesians 1:3 it is also a figure of speech in that "every" doesn't mean "every" and therefore it isn't teaching that every single possible spiritual blessing has been given to us, which is why it makes sense for Paul to ask God to give the Ephesians wisdom and understanding.
In short, context is everything!
Clete
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beloved57
Well-known member
Do you believe faith is a Spiritual Blessing ? Its a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22
Another loaded question.
Define faith.
Prediction: B57 will not offer a definition of faith. If he responds at all he'll accuse me of some form of dishonesty (i.e. avoiding the question or whatever) but he will not offer a definition of faith.
Faith, the noun, is not listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit, by the way. Did anyone else notice that b57 failed to actually quote the verse he cited?
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
So, as before, when we look at what the bible actually says and understand what it's actually talking about, it doesn't fit with b57's paradigm.Faithfulness (the adjective) is a fruit of the Spirit but it's not quite the same thing as the noun "faith" like that which Jesus repeatedly talked about (see Matt. 6:30, 8:10 and about a hundred other places) or what might be called "saving faith" as is described in places like Romans 4:5.
That's not to say that it's an entirely different thing but simply that the faithfulness which is a fruit of the Spirit is an attribute that is added to the believer in increasing measure as he proceeds in his daily walk with and in Christ. Faith isn't some sort of mystical substance and there isn't some storage room with a big vat of faith in it that God comes down and pours on our heads. The concept of faith is an abstraction. Its a word we use to convey the idea of not only being convinced that something is true but also trusting that conviction to the point of action. It cannot exist outside of thinking and volitional mind. It is just one of several concepts in the Christian lexicon that becomes meaningless within the Calvinist paradigm. It sits right next to concepts like "love", "justice", "goodness" (i.e. righteousness), "joy", self-control et al. Basically, the very fruits of the Spirit that b57 brings up, along with all the most important concepts in the whole Christian religion.
Clete
beloved57
Well-known member
Lol, nothing loaded about it. Do you believe the scripture presents Faith as a spiritual blessing ?
beloved57
Well-known member
clete
Are you kidding me ? Gal 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Its the exact same word in the original as Faith here Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Are you kidding me ? Gal 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Its the exact same word in the original as Faith here Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I directly answered that question.
Will you or will you not define what faith is?
No, just as I predicted, you will not define it because you know that the question is loaded! You don't even know how to ask a question that isn't loaded. If you were to accidently ask a question that wasn't loaded, you'd think it was loaded! And that isn't a joke or sarcasm, I'm serious. You would absolutely believe that any straight question was loaded against your doctrine which is why you will not offer a definition because you know intuitively that it will be obvious to the world that its a distinctly Calvinist definition and will prove that your question was loaded!
You're a slimy, dishonest weasel that couldn't defend his doctrine with anything approaching honesty and rationality if his life depended on it.
No, I'm not kidding you. I quoted the scripture directly.
The list of things in Galatians 5 are adjectives not nouns. As I said in my post, I'm not suggesting that it an entirely different thing and explained the difference in my post, which you promptly and predictably ignored. I'm perfectly aware that it's the same Greek word, the difference is the context. It works like this....
"His favorite color is red and so it's no surprise that he came home with a red car."
The word "red" is used in that sentence twice, first as a noun, then as an adjective. Same word, two slightly different meanings because of two different contexts!
Also, while it isn't NECESSARY, it would help you if you were to read a more modern translation.
Clete
Not that I agree with him, but "faith" in Galatians 5:22 in the greek is indeed a noun, the same as in Ephesians 2:8.
However, in Ephesians 2:8, it's a genetive noun, while in Galatians 5:22, it's a nominative noun.
What that means, exactly, I'm not sure, but there is indeed a difference between the two, just not that of noun vs adjective.
Well, I'm not convinced but you might be able to convince me.
Let's say you're right and that it's used in Gal. 5:22 is a noun. How would it have been written differently in the original language had Paul intended it to be an adjective?
Also, I'm not at all sure that it matters because there isn't any way to apply the list of virtues to people without turning them into adjectives.
Used as nouns....
The colors of the rainbow are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.
The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Used as adjectives...
That's a red car.
That's an orange door.
The yellow sunrise happened on schedule.
etc....
Bob is loving.
Bob is joyous.
Bob is peaceful.
Bob is as patient as Job.
etc...
Perhaps making the distinctions "noun" and "adjective" aren't the best way to convey the point. The point is that, as I said in my post, that there isn't some kind of substance called "patience" or "joy" that God has big vats of in storage and that He dumps on our heads when we become believers. The idea being expressed by Paul is that if you have the Spirit of God then you are going to be a loving person and you're going to be a joyful person who is good and patient and kind and faithful and self-controlled. These are all descriptions (adjectives) of a person's character not some sort of "thing" (nouns) that are forced upon a person by God. Indeed, they cannot be forced upon people. They have to be volitional or they mean nothing. What would it mean force a person to be SELF-controlled?
Clete
beloved57
Well-known member
@JudgeRightly
Well Faith in Eph 2:8 also is preceded by the definite article, which means " The Faith" so its definitely not talking about anything found in man, "the Faith" isnt sourced from man. Now the genetive case means:
The genitive case refers to the case used for a noun, pronoun, or adjective to show ownership.
E.g. His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
www.blueletterbible.org
So now if the genitive denotes the source of ownership, who owns it, whats its source ? Since Grace in the context is also feminine and so is " the Faith, then we can conclude that the faith is ownd by Grace, its the Faith that accompanies Gods Grace.
After all its written in Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
And of course I believe grace in the context of believing Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. There is a scripture that mentions the Spirit of Grace Zech 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And notice after the Spirit of Grace is poured on them, it causes them to Look, now isnt that the Look of Faith ? I believe it is. so Faith finds its source out of Grace, the Grace of the Spirit of regeneration.
Well Faith in Eph 2:8 also is preceded by the definite article, which means " The Faith" so its definitely not talking about anything found in man, "the Faith" isnt sourced from man. Now the genetive case means:
The genitive case refers to the case used for a noun, pronoun, or adjective to show ownership.
E.g. His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
Ephesians 2 :: King James Version (KJV)
Ephesians 2 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
So now if the genitive denotes the source of ownership, who owns it, whats its source ? Since Grace in the context is also feminine and so is " the Faith, then we can conclude that the faith is ownd by Grace, its the Faith that accompanies Gods Grace.
After all its written in Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
And of course I believe grace in the context of believing Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. There is a scripture that mentions the Spirit of Grace Zech 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And notice after the Spirit of Grace is poured on them, it causes them to Look, now isnt that the Look of Faith ? I believe it is. so Faith finds its source out of Grace, the Grace of the Spirit of regeneration.
I'm just saying that grammatically speaking, in both passages, the word "faith" is written as a noun, but that they are in different grammatical categories.
I'm not sure. I don't know greek. All I have is the app I screenshotted above to tell me that they're nouns in the greek.
But that's not how they're being used in Galatians.
The fruit (noun) of the Spirit is love (noun), joy (noun), peace (noun), longsuffering (noun), kindness (noun), goodness (noun), faithfulness (noun), gentleness (noun), self-control (noun).
I totally agree.
Agreed!
I mean, I agree, but the way Paul words it is that they are qualities (nouns) brought about by the working of the Spirit within them, in conjunction with their willingness, of course.
Agreed.
Agreed.
In addition, it almost seems like Paul isn't talking only about those who believe, but also about those who will believe but haven't yet.
In the Parable of the Barren Fig tree, Jesus says that for three years He had come seeking fruit from Israel, but found none, and told the Holy Spirit to cut down the tree. The Holy Spirit told Him to wait one more year (the time period between His ascension and Paul's conversion) for Him to dig around it and fertilize it, and if it bears fruit, well, but if not, after that He can cut it down. So while ultimately, Israel bore no fruit, as a nation, there was the Remnant who believed, a fruit of sorts.
This is somewhat how I imagine the Spirit works in unbelievers today, working in their hearts to bring them to God, and the fruit of His working in their heart, when the flower has been fertilized, so to speak, is that the person has faith, and trusts in God.
And I just realized I solved an issue I was having with this point that B57 had brought up previously... and I believe solves this entire issue.
@beloved57 The point is that just because the fruit of the spirit is faith, doesn't mean that the Spirit gives a person that faith. No, the fruit comes from the tree that the spirit fertilizes, not from the Spirit Himself. And that faith leads a person to call upon God for help, and God hears and saves the person.
For:
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:9-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-17&version=NKJV
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beloved57
Well-known member
@JudgeRightly
The Tree or the vine is Christ, and the Spirit is sent from Christ, so its in essence Christs Spirit Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same, and so the fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of Christ the Tree or Vine, and thats where Faith comes from. In fact Paul calls it the Faith of Christ Gal 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
This is the genitive Faith of Christ, Its Faith given to Paul from its owner and source Jesus Christ, through His Spirit.
The Tree or the vine is Christ, and the Spirit is sent from Christ, so its in essence Christs Spirit Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same, and so the fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of Christ the Tree or Vine, and thats where Faith comes from. In fact Paul calls it the Faith of Christ Gal 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
This is the genitive Faith of Christ, Its Faith given to Paul from its owner and source Jesus Christ, through His Spirit.
You need to use the "+Quote" button.
Well Faith in Eph 2:8 also is preceded by the definite article, which means " The Faith" so its definitely not talking about anything found in man, "the Faith" isnt sourced from man. Now the genetive case means:
The genitive case refers to the case used for a noun, pronoun, or adjective to show ownership.
E.g. His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
Ephesians 2 :: King James Version (KJV)
Ephesians 2 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
So now if the genitive denotes the source of ownership, who owns it, whats its source ? Since Grace in the context is also feminine and so is " the Faith, then we can conclude that the faith is ownd by Grace, its the Faith that accompanies Gods Grace.
After all its written in Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
And of course I believe grace in the context of believing Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. There is a scripture that mentions the Spirit of Grace Zech 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And notice after the Spirit of Grace is poured on them, it causes them to Look, now isnt that the Look of Faith ? I believe it is. so Faith finds its source out of Grace, the Grace of the Spirit of regeneration.
None of this addresses what was said.
Again, you need to use the "+Quote" button.
Yes. And?
Again, none of this addresses what I said.