ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

[God's Truth]

Have you never heard of the preaching of the Cross, how that the Lord Jesus died for our sins?:

Jesus died for our sins. We enter that grace by believing Jesus forgives us of the sins we repent of doing.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor.1:18).​

The preaching of the cross is about confessing our sins to Jesus the High Priest. The preaching of the cross is not how to act like a dead person who cannot more or think or speak.

You know, the word of God which declares that the Lord Jesus was "made to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).

The jailer was saved when he believed those things:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house" (Acts 16:30-32).​

Unfortunately you think that believing is not enough to be saved.

Tell it to James and Peter and Jesus Christ himself.

 

[Tambora]

Unlike you, GT, I am not out to impress people.

:thumb:

 

[turbosixx]

I agree, Christ is the end of the law and Paul clearly proclaims that. Here Paul is not reminding them of the OT commandments.

Those are the same commandments, and they have the same purpose. "You know the commandments...", Paul is reminding them of what they are....

If we look at the rest of the verse, we see where the commandments came from
1 Thes. 4:2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
These are not the commandments from Moses. Also, if we look at the prior verse again it says its’ from them,
4:1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

Paul says the things he writes are commandments from Christ.
1 Cor. 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

As far as the vine, it isn't like the body, because we can never be "severed" from Christ.

You should check your translation on "severed". Paul specifically speaks of those who are "justified by the law".

I checked the word, thanks. Here it is. Sever is one of the definitions.
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

They have fallen from grace, because grace can only be accessed through faith.

I agree. That is what this book is about. Men were trying to add circumcision to the gospel.
If we look at the context of chapter 5, these Christians were influenced to add circumcision, but Paul tells them not to go back to it and if they do they need to keep the whole law and Christ will be no good to them for the will fall from grace.

NKJV
5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
It’s clear. It’s Christ or the old law, you can’t have both. One saves and the other does not.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

All those who attempt to access grace through their own obedience frustrate the grace of God..."then Christ is dead in vain."

He’s not talking about their obedience; he’s talking about trying to be righteous under that old law something they have done their whole life.


Anyway, that’s how I understand it.

 

[God's Truth]

Oh, you've repented of your sin of pride?

Does repent mean you're just sorry, or does it mean you're going to quit being proud?


When is that supposed to happen? opcorn:

What is with the constant pride accusation?

 

[glorydaz]

I agree, Christ is the end of the law and Paul clearly proclaims that. Here Paul is not reminding them of the OT commandments.


If we look at the rest of the verse, we see where the commandments came from
1 Thes. 4:2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
These are not the commandments from Moses. Also, if we look at the prior verse again it says its’ from them,
4:1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

Paul says the things he writes are commandments from Christ.
1 Cor. 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

What would those be then? When Jesus came He "magnified" the commandments...as we read in Matt. 5. Or are you talking about church rules? Please be specific.

 

[glorydaz]

What is with the constant pride accusation?

Well, it jumps off the page with every post you make.

Surely you don't think you've managed to hide it, do you?

 

[God's Truth]

What would those be then? When Jesus came He "magnified" the commandments...as we read in Matt. 5. Or are you talking about church rules? Please be specific.

Jesus taught the new guidelines.
It doesn't make sense to say he magnified the old law.
He taught how to take care of sin when it starts, from the heart.

 

[God's Truth]

Well, it jumps off the page with every post you make.

Surely you don't think you've managed to hide it, do you?

You seem like the most prideful but why should I constantly accuse you? That is no defense of the truth. I think you are a lot of things, but why mention it?

 

[turbosixx]

What would those be then? When Jesus came He "magnified" the commandments...as we read in Matt. 5. Or are you talking about church rules? Please be specific.

I'm not sure what you mean by church rules. Paul's letters are to the church.

Here are some from the letters to the Thessalonians.
Sexual immorality
1 Thes. 4:3For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
Cheating
4:6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter
Not be a busy body and provide for yourself
4:11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
Be a good example to those not of the body
4:12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.
Withdraw from unruly brethren
2 Thes. 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.
Provide for yourself
3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

 

[glorydaz]

I checked the word, thanks. Here it is. Sever is one of the definitions.
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

To be made useless...become of no effect. Whatever the word you want to use, Paul is saying those who are relying on the law for their justification have no claim on Christ whatsoever. Christ's death on the cross (grace) will profit you nothing without faith.

Galatians 5:3-4KJV
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.​

In fact, read a little farther and you'll find this....

Gal. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?​

"Obey the truth" is believing the Gospel. They fell short...though they started off well, but were not saved, because their trust was in the Law instead of in God's grace through faith.

We actually see that a lot....this very thread speaks to the issue.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus taught the new guidelines.
It doesn't make sense to say he magnified the old law.
He taught how to take care of sin when it starts, from the heart.

Isaiah 42:21
The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.​

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not sure what you mean by church rules. Paul's letters are to the church.

Here are some from the letters to the Thessalonians.
Sexual immorality
1 Thes. 4:3For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
Cheating
4:6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter
Not be a busy body and provide for yourself
4:11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
Be a good example to those not of the body
4:12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.
Withdraw from unruly brethren
2 Thes. 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.
Provide for yourself
3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

Well, sexual immorality would definately be covered in Matt. 5, and the rest are probably covered there as well. Most there are guildlines...."mind your own business" is a good guide, for instance. If considered a commandment then that would lead to a problem with helping those who need help. Withdrawing from every brother....these are all guidelines that require discernment. People see the word "commandments" and they immediately come under bondage...which is exactly what Paul preaches against.

 

[glorydaz]

You seem like the most prideful but why should I constantly accuse you? That is no defense of the truth. I think you are a lot of things, but why mention it?

You are filled with pride. I mention it because it's obviously a big problem for you....to say nothing of how annoying it is for the rest of us.

 

[God's Truth]

Isaiah 42:21
The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.​

Now it is more understandable. Sometimes scripture just doesn't sound right to me coming from a hateful sounding person.

Jesus changed the old law. The new law is the old law with some changes.

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

 

[Nanja]

That does not change the fact that the Christian already possesses eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, the Christian enjoys eternal security from the moment he believes.

Before a person has been given New Birth, his own believing is a work of the flesh, which cannot please God Rom. 8:8

ergon, G2041:

II. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1


Eternal Life was Promised to Christ's Sheep He gave His Life for John 10:11, 15, 28, God's Elect.

Titus 1:1-2
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

 

[Cross Reference]

You are filled with pride. I mention it because it's obviously a big problem for you....to say nothing of how annoying it is for the rest of us.

Obviously, If GT is saved her being prideful is a "so what" thing, correct? I mean her pride is a non-issue, right? But I wonder, was she prideful before or after she got saved? hmmmm, I wonder? What do you think?

 

[God's Truth]

Obviously, If GT is saved her being prideful is a "so what" thing, correct? I mean her pride is a non-issue, right? But I wonder, was she prideful before or after she got saved? hmmmm, I wonder? What do you think?

You falsely judge and slander me because I proved to you with scripture that your tongue speaking is false, along with your prophecies.

You are the one who exposes yourself as prideful, it is why you try to slander me.

 

[Cross Reference]

To be made useless...become of no effect. Whatever the word you want to use, Paul is saying those who are relying on the law for their justification have no claim on Christ whatsoever. Christ's death on the cross (grace) will profit you nothing without faith.

Galatians 5:3-4KJV
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.​

In fact, read a little farther and you'll find this....

Gal. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?​

"Obey the truth" is believing the Gospel. They fell short...though they started off well, but were not saved, because their trust was in the Law instead of in God's grace through faith.

We actually see that a lot....this very thread speaks to the issue.

Obeying is walking in Christ! The gospel is the indwelling Life of Jesus Christ. The "Gospel" continually being worked out to fulfillment IN Him, IN me. End of story for anyone who understands his life IN Christ is a relationship and not a doctrine..

Prayed by Jesus re the relationship between His Disciples, who had not yet been redeemed, and Himself and His Father:

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:22-23 (KJV)

The salvation of His Disciples had not yet been consumated by the shed blood of Jesus which would declare them "legally" redeemed.

Where do you place that in your thinking?

 

[Cross Reference]

Of course they think about sin all the time. They are obsessed with it just like you are. You seem to get off on imagining how others are sinning, but you don't recognize your own horrible pride. That's pretty typical.





There you go....always imagining what others are doing and thinking. Many smokers are trying to quit smoking....not that smoking is a sin. Many adulterers are trying to quit messing around, because they see how it messes up their lives. Wife beaters promise to never do it again. Drunks are always trying to give up drinking. Did you know that spiritual pride is the worst sin of them all? Do you love how much you think you know about the Scripture? Do you love putting others down while you build yourself up? :chew:



Do you notice how you just read obedience into what I said?

​

Does it stroke your ego to think I might be listening to you? :chuckle:

I think "resentful" would be more like it.
At least GT is recognizes some of the issues surrounding the "why" of salvation that might be confessed [lived up to].

 

[Cross Reference]

If a person doesn't believe, why would they repent?

If a person doesn't believe, what would they repent of?

If a person doesn't believe, who would they repent to?

An unknown God?

Question: If one believes the gospel unto a profession of faith as you do, why the need to repent? Does the battle with temptation automatically cease upon saying a sinners prayer. What can only sustain that one who desires to "know" God after coming to the cross for His salvation? Who should be the "preacher-teacher" he should listen to after salvation has come to him?