exploring Circumcision and Baptism

[elohiym]

Indeed, but it could also be said it pointed to our receiving the Holy Spirit, which is the quintessential promise made to Abraham: “I am your reward.”

Genesis 15
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Please don't lie to me, Tam. The thread is still there for everyone to read it.

She would only be lying if one disregards the word "IF".
Looks to me like her motive is now made clear.
That is the preaching of Jesus Christ.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Indeed, but it could also be said it pointed to our receiving the Holy Spirit, which is the quintessential promise made to Abraham: “I am your reward.”

Genesis 15
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

Yep.
Our comforter is the token.
Kinda brings home the, "manifold", wisdom of God.

 

[Tambora]

Genesis 17:11
You are to circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and this will be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.

What covenant did God make with Abraham? It represents that covenant. Was that the Mosaic covenant? No.

Galatians 3:16-18 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as one would in referring to many, but rather as in referring to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430years later, does not invalidate a covenantpreviously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is [y]based on law, it is no longer [z]based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Yeppers.
God made a covenant of promise with Abraham that he would be the father of many nations.
The immediate seed of Abe by promise was Isaac, called only begotten son.
The seed that fulfilled was Christ, called only begotten Son.

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

The Jews and Arabs circumcise because it is a commandment of God: "And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Genesis 17

And yes, it has serious health benefits. It is used as AIDS prevention, because it reduces the chance of a HIV infection with 73%.

And it has other health benefits, see here: https://sites.google.com/view/circ-life-saver/home

But the most important thing is of course; those who do the will of God will be blessed, those who ignore the commandments of God will be punished.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Jews and Arabs circumcise because it is a commandment of God: "And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Genesis 17

And yes, it has serious health benefits. It is used as AIDS prevention, because it reduces the chance of a HIV infection with 73%.

And it has other health benefits, see here: https://sites.google.com/view/circ-life-saver/home

But the most important thing is of course; those who do the will of God will be blessed, those who ignore the commandments of God will be punished.

Circumcision for Israel has nothing to do with physical health benefits.

It's a physical mark on the skin that was supposed to remind Israel that they were separate from the world.

 

[Tambora]

But the most important thing is of course; those who do the will of God will be blessed, those who ignore the commandments of God will be punished.

Eight day old children do not choose to be circumcised [it is forced upon them], so they are neither obeying the will of God to be blessed or ignoring it to be punished.
There has to be something else to it since 8 day old children are not obeying a command.

 

[Right Divider]

Eight day old children do not choose to be circumcised [it is forced upon them], so they are neither obeying the will of God to be blessed or ignoring it to be punished.
There has to be something else to it since 8 day old children are not obeying a command.

God gave the command to grown men as well as the sons.

Thereafter, the fathers had to obey regarding their sons on the sons eighth day going forward.

Gen 17:9-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(17:9) ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. (17:10) This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. (17:11) And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. (17:12) And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. (17:13) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. (17:14) And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Note the requirement for ALL men in "your house" to be circumcised regardless of age.

 

[Tambora]

Eight day old children did not obey a command to receive the sign of circumcision.
They had no choice in the matter.

 

[Right Divider]

Eight day old children did not obey a command to receive the sign of circumcision.
They had no choice in the matter.

Agreed.

 

[Idolater]

Eight day old children did not obey a command to receive the sign of circumcision.
They had no choice in the matter.

Do you think the jailer in "all his house" Acts 16:34 (cf. 31, 32 & 33) there were any minors in his house?

Circumcision symbolized the coming of Christ; the crucifixion, and the revenge for Eve against sin. Circumcision was like a bandaid----it helps heal a little bit, and it's visible----but Christ is the cure.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Circumcision symbolized the coming of Christ; the crucifixion, and the revenge for Eve against sin

Not even close. I'm not even sure how you arrived at such a conclusion...

Circumcision symbolized the cutting off of the "flesh." It is also used as a synecdoche for "the law."

 

[Idolater]

Not even close. I'm not even sure how you arrived at such a conclusion...

Circumcision symbolized the cutting off of the "flesh." It is also used as a synecdoche for "the law."

Those are also true. Those don't conflict with what I said.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Those are also true. Those don't conflict with what I said.

Prove it.

 

[Tambora]

Do you think the jailer in "all his house" Acts 16:34 (cf. 31, 32 & 33) there were any minors in his house?

Not sure what you are asking.
I do not know if any minors were there.

Circumcision symbolized the coming of Christ; the crucifixion, and the revenge for Eve against sin. Circumcision was like a bandaid----it helps heal a little bit, and it's visible----but Christ is the cure.

Our circumcision and baptism is definitely tied to Christ.
Not by us doing it but having it done to us without hands.

Colossians 2
(11) In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
(12) having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

[Hoping]

Eight day old children do not choose to be circumcised [it is forced upon them], so they are neither obeying the will of God to be blessed or ignoring it to be punished.
There has to be something else to it since 8 day old children are not obeying a command.

Good point.
The "something" is the casting away of the "flesh" by Christians at their water baptism into Christ and into His death and burial.
OT circumcision was a presage of the NT's destruction of the old man and being reborn to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.

 

[Idolater]

Prove it.

The woman's seed, a male, will avenge her. He will do it through the sacrifice of His flesh and the shedding of His blood.

Not sure what you are asking.
I do not know if any minors were there.

I'm thinking about the practice of infant baptism and the analogy with infant circumcision.

Our circumcision and baptism is definitely tied to Christ.
Not by us doing it but having it done to us without hands.

Colossians 2
(11) In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
(12) having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Totally.

Good point.
The "something" is the casting away of the "flesh" by Christians at their water baptism into Christ and into His death and burial.

And Resurrection!

OT circumcision was a presage of the NT's destruction of the old man and being reborn to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.

That too.

Circumcision was an immensely important sacrament for a number of reasons, which is why it's so important to know every reason why Christ's coming fulfilled and amended the OT liturgy.

 

[Tambora]

I'm thinking about the practice of infant baptism and the analogy with infant circumcision.

Ahh, I see.
And it can't be overlooked that infants didn't choose to do it, but it was done to them.
That alone should squelch the notion that baptism and circumcision is equated with obedience.

 

[Hoping]

And Resurrection!

I hesitate to call the Rom 6:4's "being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life" a resurrection, as it confuses some with the final resurrection at the return of Christ Jesus.

 

[Hoping]

Ahh, I see.
And it can't be overlooked that infants didn't choose to do it, but it was done to them.
That alone should squelch the notion that baptism and circumcision is equated with obedience.

On the other hand, the notion of baby-baptism can be squelched because water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is truly the result of obedience. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
As babies can neither sin nor obey, what would be the point of baptizing them....beside the money angle.