Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

[The Barbarian]

A stop sign contains information. Bumps on a paper contain information (If you know Braille).

Hurricanes have a complex fractal structure and a great deal of information. The remains of a burned house has a great deal of information that tells a perceptive person a great deal about the fire and it's causes.

All "non-intelligent sources" that contain information that is sent/ received and requires action ALWAYS HAS AN INTELLIGENT DESIGNER!

Who do you think designs hurricanes? Who is it that designs burned buildings?

Our DNA... the most sophisticated information system in existence is evidence of our Creator. "In the beginning, God..."

You're selling God short here. The amazing thing is not some little nature god, figuring out DNA. It's an omnipotent Creator, making a universe, in which such things form from the laws He created.

God is a lot smarter and more capable than YE creationists want Him to be.

 

[Stripe]

It's what should be a fairly simple question. If we have two genomes, how do we tell which has more information?

This is assuming the standard you set out for what qualifies as information, which was basically volume. By that standard, we would only have to look at the number of base pairs. But if we do that, you'll suddenly change your tune and say that we must believe a lungfish's genome has more information than a person's.

In reality, to calculate information content would take a whole lot more effort than just counting the size of a data set.

For what are obvious reasons, creationists can't answer.

Shows what you know. :loser:

 

[Stripe]

So?

So it's not just "says me."

I give reasons and evidence for what I believe.

 

[Stripe]

A star's spectrum contains information. The Sun's corona contains information. Fossils contain information. Layers of rock contain information. Dead bodies contain information. Blood contains information.

Hurricanes have a complex fractal structure and a great deal of information. The remains of a burned house has a great deal of information that tells a perceptive person a great deal about the fire and it's causes.

Nope.

These things contain matter that could emerge in many different sequences and yet the entity would still be essentially the same thing.

A hurricane, for instance, might have a strength, a direction and a location, but it would still be a hurricane if those details were altered slightly. Information — which we defined carefully, but the Darwinists just ignored, despite demanding a definition and mocking us for not having one — does not respond well to random changes.

The items the Darwinists are listing have measurable features that people can record. Data, not information.

Information only comes from an informed source.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Hurricanes have a complex fractal structure and a great deal of information. The remains of a burned house has a great deal of information that tells a perceptive person a great deal about the fire and it's causes.

Nope.

C'mon Stipe. You aren't that dumb. Fire investigation is a science that makes it possible to do arson investigations. A burned house leaves all sorts of information that makes it possible to learn what caused the fire, how it proceded, whether or not an accellerant was used, and so on. Who designs a burned house, Stipe?

Did you really not know that?

A hurricane, for instance, might have a strength, a direction and a location

All of which is information. This is how meteorologists can predict where storms will go, how much rain will fall, and how strong winds are likely to get. Who designs the storms, Stipe?

but it would still be a hurricane if those details were altered slightly.

And it would have different information. Who designs hurricanes, Stipe?

Information — which we defined carefully,

Nope. You have nothing. Everyone knows, Stipe.

The items the Darwinists are listing have measurable features that people can record. Data, not information.

So things that we can measure and record, like DNA sequences aren't information? You just crawled out on a branch, and then sawed it off.

Information only comes from an informed source.

Since you've now concluded that DNA sequences aren't information, is there anything in the universe that you do think is information?

 

[chair]

Take text, say a cake recipe. Randomly change letters and numbers. Enter the resulting cakes in bake-offs.

Take the winning recipes and randomly change them.

Repeat as many times as you like.

Watch what happens.

I think this could be a useful example. But we shouldn't randomly change letters. What we should randomly change is the actual instructions: how much of each ingredient, which ingredients, oven temperature and so on.

If we did that, we would have a system to evolve better cakes.

 

[chair]

Could one of the creationists here explain how the "kinds" concept helps in your belief system? After all, you still have Evolution, just with a different mechanism. How does that help?

 

[gcthomas]

Nope.

Evidence, remember?

Random changes can never produce information.

You've spent years shifting between definitions of information so you can make baseless comments, but I'll try this time: how are you defining information? JR above seems to be using the definition from Shannon, give his/her comments. What are you using here?

(I'll agree that it takes people to infer meaning from information, but that isn't what we are talking about, is it?)

Tell you what, look at my longer post where I show how mutations can create information, and you try to critique it?

 

[gcthomas]

But if we do that, you'll suddenly change your tune and say that we must believe a lungfish's genome has more information than a person's.

Why would you think that the lungfish genome has less information than a human's? It might be unused or unimportant information, it might me preserved information of an endogenous retrovirus genome. Unused or useless, but information nonetheless.

 

[6days]

I rebutted Right Divider's assertion that information can ONLY come from an intelligent source.

And I told you that information (coded info as in my examples, that require action) always have an Intelligent Creator.

 

[gcthomas]

And I told you that information (coded info as in my examples, that require action) always have an Intelligent Creator.

Yet I showed you, with an example, how mutations can do just that with randomness and no intelligence.

Tell you what, if you can define the sort of information that can't be produced without intelligence, then I'll show you that DNA doesn't have that sort.

 

[6days]

Could one of the creationists here explain how the "kinds" concept helps in your belief system? After all, you still have Evolution, just with a different mechanism. How does that help?

Well..... I suppose it helps in knowing we don't need to believe in psuedo-science things such as cow-like creatures evolving into whales. It helps knowing that there is a loving God who knows me.... created me for a purpose.

 

[6days]

information (coded info as in my examples, that require action) always have an Intelligent Creator.

Yet I showed you, with an example, how mutations can do just that with randomness and no intelligence.

Mutations didn't create the code... they corrupt it.

 

[gcthomas]

Mutations didn't create the code... they corrupt it.

As I showed you, code can be created by duplication and mutation. Many times it becomes corrupted, perhaps, but in some cases the resulting changes in the specified amino acid produces a protein that is more effective than the original. (In any case, corrupted code still has the same amount of information, it just codes for less effective proteins)

Unless you just assume that the 'original' genome was somehow perfect without the evidence to justify the assumption?

 

[6days]

A burned house leaves all sorts of information....

A burned house is not coded information that is sent, transmitted, received, and requiring action.


We can worship our Creator through the wonders of DNA..... why do you wish to compare it to a burned house and destructive forces?

 

[6days]

As I showed you, code can be created by duplication and mutation.

Mutations can alter the existing code.


Let's put some phosphate groups, sugar groups and some nitrogen bases down on a table. There is no such thing as a mutation unless there is a code... and a pretty sophisticated code at that, which can replicate.

 

[Silent Hunter]

I rebutted Right Divider's assertion that information can ONLY come from an intelligent source.

And I told you that information (coded info as in my examples, that require action) always have an Intelligent Creator.

Always? You don't know that but nothing ever keeps you from asserting so without any evidence. All you do is continue to repeat your mantra, "GODDIDIT!!!" for any gap in scientific knowledge, you might as well question the cause of thunder and lightning. Your only evidence is "GODDIDIT!!!" and DNA is so incredibly complex it HAD to be, "GIDDIDIT!!!" Would you like to guess the logical fallacy of which you CONTINUE to be guilty?

... and you're STILL denying the only explanation you can muster isn't, "GODDIDIT!!!" (per our past conversations).

 

[gcthomas]

Mutations can alter the existing code.


Let's put some phosphate groups, sugar groups and some nitrogen bases down on a table. There is no such thing as a mutation unless there is a code... and a pretty sophisticated code at that, which can replicate.

There is no code to DNA in the usual sense of a code woth a code book. Yes, someone needs to invent a code book for created codes. But there is no DNA code book! Just the requirements of chemistry. No arbitrary linking of symbols in the code with meanings. Just chemistry. DNA is not a code like braille, or morse code, or ASCII code. There is no table for code conversions, so no actual encoding in the sense that requires an active agent.

(ANd who has told you that DNA was formed in one step from the base elements by a mutation? You are setting up an Aunt Sally here *— that is a waste of our time)

Back to the question you have avoided:

"Tell you what, if you can define the sort of information that can't be produced without intelligence, then I'll show you that DNA doesn't have that sort. "

The TL;DR, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD 'INFORMATION'?

 

[The Barbarian]

I think this could be a useful example. But we shouldn't randomly change letters. What we should randomly change is the actual instructions: how much of each ingredient, which ingredients, oven temperature and so on.

If we did that, we would have a system to evolve better cakes.

Actually, that's how people used to design things. They'd do a feasible design, and then try altering it in various ways. If the alteration made it work better, they'd keep that. If not, it was left off. Over time, the system evolved to a more efficient design.

Now, engineers have copied Darwinian evolution to solve problems that are to difficult to solve by design:
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2003-01-1853/

Evolution turns out to work better than design. God knew what He was doing, after all.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There is no code to DNA in the usual sense of a code woth a code book. Yes, someone needs to invent a code book for created codes. But there is no DNA code book! Just the requirements of chemistry. No arbitrary linking of symbols in the code with meanings. Just chemistry. DNA is not a code like braille, or morse code, or ASCII code. There is no table for code conversions, so no actual encoding in the sense that requires an active agent.

(ANd who has told you that DNA was formed in one step from the base elements by a mutation? You are setting up an Aunt Sally here *— that is a waste of our time)

Back to the question you have avoided:

"Tell you what, if you can define the sort of information that can't be produced without intelligence, then I'll show you that DNA doesn't have that sort. "

The TL;DR, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD 'INFORMATION'?

Information: what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things.