Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

[The Barbarian]

There are several internet forums that at least in part address the evolution vs. creationism issue, and in all of them creationists exhibit this specific behavior.

Creationist: Oh yeah? Where's the evidence? SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!!!

Science advocate: Here's a description of some of the evidence.

Funny you should mention that.

Creationist: My eyes glazed over. I stopped reading after the first sentence. None of it matters anyways. Evidence doesn't matter. All that matters is God's Word.

I mean, the mere fact that they pose science-oriented questions in religious forums provides a pretty good indication that their questions don't stem from a good-faith interest in the actual science.

I think maybe it's not dishonesty. Whenever I ask Mrs. Barbarian about an insurance question, my eyes glaze over, too. She works for a medical school, specializing in difficult cases. Insurance companies write rules so that they can get pretty much any answer they want by citing the right clause.

But it's a double-edged sword, and she knows how to use it.

Some of this stuff might be a little heavy if you haven't had college biology.

 

[Right Divider]

Turns out, we have lots of transitional forms showing how it happened...

If you'd like some genetic and anatomical detail on the process, let me know, and we'll start a thread on that.

Your pretty pictures are cute.... believe your lie if you like. You seem to prefer lies to truth anyway. Good day.

 

[Jose Fly]

I think maybe it's not dishonesty.

Out of curiosity, what do you think "it" is ("it" being the creationist habit of asking for information knowing that they'll just ignore whatever is posted)?

As you're probably aware, one of the long-running debates among "evolutionists" is whether creationists really believe in the arguments they make. I remember back in the old TO days arguments over whether creationists were quote-mining deliberately (i.e., they knew what they were doing was dishonest, but didn't care) or if they really didn't understand how patching together parts of sentences that were pages apart was dishonest.

I see this as the same sort of question.

Whenever I ask Mrs. Barbarian about an insurance question, my eyes glaze over, too. She works for a medical school, specializing in difficult cases. Insurance companies write rules so that they can get pretty much any answer they want by citing the right clause.

Really Barbarian? You truly think you asking your wife questions about insurance is analogous to the "Oh yeah, what about THIS" threads from creationists?

Some of this stuff might be a little heavy if you haven't had college biology.

Especially if one has little to no interest in it in the first place.

 

[6days]

Well, there's crabs. They usually spend alot of time in or near water and have eight legs. Most of which have kneees, I think. Speaking of water, there's also shrimp, lobsters, and crayfish with their funny knees.

Some birds have really funny knees. Have you ever seen flamingo knees? They're usually hidden under their feathers.

The there are mammals. Some of them have four legs and, along with them, four knees. Although bipedal animals, like humans, only have two knees.

Lots of different types of knees!

Many designs... all suited to each organism.... Evidence for our Designer.

 

[The Barbarian]

Many designs... all suited to each organism.... Evidence for our Designer.

But notice that vertebrates, with a common ancestor, all the same parts, developed differently, to be functional.

Widely divergent functions, but all by modification of a common set of parts. A complete mystery to creationists, particularly with human wrists that are prone to repetitive motion injury due to the bones and nerves in a structure originally evolved for walking. This defect could easily have been designed out, but our development is constrained by our ancestry.

This is a prediction of evolution,but it's a constant problem for creationists.

 

[SUTG]

Many designs... all suited to each organism.... Evidence for our Designer.

There are many designs, and they are all suited to each organism. But this is not evidence for your designer. And if you think it happened in six days, you're really going to have problems with evidence.

 

[The Barbarian]

Lots of different types of knees! Many designs... all suited to each organism.... Evidence for our Designer.

Our knees, being evolved for a quadrupedal animal, are modified somewhat for bipedalism. But they don't work so well.

The knee is basically two bones held together by three bands of ligaments that because all of our weight (and force when we move) is focused on just two legs, tend to tear and fail.

It's a pretty shabby mess, but it's what you'd expect from a species recently evolved from quadrupedalism. Unfortunately, there seems to be no way to get around the problem because there's no effective transitional changes that would be useful. It's like your carpal tunnel, or lower back; we're stuck with it.

 

[The Barbarian]

Your pretty pictures are cute....

And accurately depict the transition from fins to legs. It's well-documented many fossils, and of course a comparison vertebrate and fish genes confirms this evolution.

believe your lie if you like.

No one really thinks it's a lie. You don't even think so. Do you think anyone is fooled?

Good day.

Probably would have been better for you to bail out earlier, um?

 

[musterion]

A few weeks ago I was at a workshop with a bunch of my colleagues, and after one of them finished up a presentation on the current state of the science, another researcher stood up and said "Get your facts straight. You know nothing."

The room erupted into thunderous applause as we were all blown away by the brilliance and insight of that comment. :chuckle:

As you should have been, fool. Now go get your shine box.

 

[The Barbarian]

Really Barbarian? You truly think you asking your wife questions about insurance is analogous to the "Oh yeah, what about THIS" threads from creationists?

I just empathize with Clete's eyes glazing over when faced with the details of evidence for evolution. When Mrs. B gets into the fine points of law and contract on health insurance, that's what happens to me.

 

[musterion]

Impressive for someone who can't get quote tags right.

 

[The Barbarian]

You seem to be doing better than you used to do, Musty. But your formatting sometimes needs work.

Now run along, the adults are talkng.

 

[Jose Fly]

As you should have been, fool. Now go get your shine box.

So Musterion truly believes "Get your facts straight. You know nothing" is a valid rebuttal.

Speaks for itself.......

 

[Jose Fly]

I just empathize with Clete's eyes glazing over when faced with the details of evidence for evolution.

I tend to think there's a key difference though. When Mrs. B starts talking insurance, your eyes glaze over mostly because it's rather dense, specialized material. But with Clete, his eyes glazed over because it was information he didn't want to begin with and wasn't at all open to ever considering.

Know what I mean?

 

[SUTG]

Impressive for someone who can't get quote tags right.[/QUOTE}

My ears are ringing...

 

[musterion]

So Musterion truly believes "Get your facts straight. You know nothing" is a valid rebuttal.

Speaks for itself.......

Shine 'em up good, son.

 

[musterion]

There are many designs, and they are all suited to each organism. But this is not evidence for your designer.

Sure it is. Nothing else explains it.

And if you think it happened in six days, you're really going to have problems with evidence.

Even given sixty million or six billion years, your fundamental proposition - life spontaneously from lifelessness - is absurd to the point of insane. It. Does. Not. Happen.

 

[patrick jane]

Sure it is. Nothing else explains it.



Even given sixty million or six billion years, your fundamental proposition - life spontaneously from lifelessness - is absurd to the point of insane. It. Does. Not. Happen.

I've been watching a few debates between Hitchins and Lennox and it's hilarious, the atheists don't have a "leg" to stand on.

 

[Right Divider]

And accurately depict the transition from fins to legs. It's well-documented many fossils, and of course a comparison vertebrate and fish genes confirms this evolution.

You really are a "True Believer" in those bogus ideas.

No one really thinks it's a lie. You don't even think so. Do you think anyone is fooled?

You really are a "True Believer" in those bogus ideas.

Probably would have been better for you to bail out earlier, um?

You really are a "True Believer" in those bogus ideas.

 

[The Barbarian]

Even given sixty million or six billion years, your fundamental proposition - life spontaneously from lifelessness - is absurd to the point of insane. It. Does. Not. Happen.

In Genesis, God said it did, as He intended. You should believe HIm.