Evolution Inhibits Science Progress

[Jukia]

Originally posted by Turbo



This was a miraculous event, but it's most likely that the sun and moon were still relative to the observer.

Want to explain that? The sun and the moon were "still relative to the observer"? Does it not mean that either the earth stopped rotating or that all of a sudden for a time, the moon and the sun started moving relative to the earth such that their relative postions compared to the earth were static?
Either way seems to violate a number of the laws of physics.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Jukia

Want to explain that? The sun and the moon were "still relative to the observer"? Does it not mean that either the earth stopped rotating or that all of a sudden for a time, the moon and the sun started moving relative to the earth such that their relative postions compared to the earth were static?

I have no way of knowing for sure.

Either way seems to violate a number of the laws of physics.

That's why it's called a miracle. :doh:

• An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

God is supernatural. He is not bound by the laws of nature.

 

[Jukia]

Silly me to look for a logical explanation. Guess that is the difference between us, huh? If it is in the Bible you say "Gotta be", I say "Maybe, lets look a little closer".

 

[Turbo]

Yes, because I have been persuaded by the overwhelming evidence that the Bible is true. It wasn't so long ago I was an agnostic evolutionist.

Are you this skeptical about Christ's resurrection, too? Or the other miracles performed by Jesus?

 

[Jukia]

Not skeptical re the resurrection, not sure about the other miracles although I really like the water to wine at Cana.

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Originally posted by Turbo

Oddly, he didn't recant his belief that the earth revolved around the sun.

Galileo's Christian beliefs are well documented. Do you have any evidence that that suggests that he was not a Christian?



Church vs. Galileo
What were Galileo's scientific and biblical conflicts with the Church?




This was a miraculous event, but it's most likely that the sun and moon were still relative to the observer.
Do you think that verse mean that even God cannot move the world?


Ecclesiastes 1:5 is precisely the verse I was alluding to when I mentioned your weatherman. Do you scoff when your weatherman mentions what time sunrise and sunset were for the day?

[Galileo] was pronounced to be vehemently suspect of heresy and was condemned to life imprisonment and was made to abjure formally.

"Galileo." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004. Encyclopædia Britannica Online.
20 May 2004 <http://search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=108035>.

a. It is not unreasonable to conclude that if one was threatened with tortune and death by one's religious institution, then one might lose faith in it.
b. The Church nevertheless indefinatly imprisoned him. Whether he was Christian or not doesn't change this.

All those responses you made were not LITERAL intrepretations of the passages.

 

[bob b]

Originally posted by YawgmothsAvatar

"Galileo." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004. Encyclopædia Britannica Online.
20 May 2004 <http://search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=108035>.

a. It is not unreasonable to conclude that if one was threatened with tortune and death by one's religious institution, then one might lose faith in it.
b. The Church nevertheless indefinatly imprisoned him. Whether he was Christian or not doesn't change this.

All those responses you made were not LITERAL intrepretations of the passages.

Serious historical accounts of the Galileo Affair give a different picture of the situation.

I researched this once using a number of serious history books dedicated to covering the "affair", and they all agreed that the fame of Galileo and the power of his supporters protected him from the usual treatment given lesser personages by the Inquisition.

His "house arrest" was in a castle of a friend and supporter of his and he continued to see visiters and to add to his many works, even though by this time he was an old man in poor health.

BTW, the pope at that time was an earlier friend of his, although his continual defiance of papal orders caused the former warm friendship to cool.

Here is some information from my previous research.

Many authors agree that the Inquisition was brought to bear against Galileo primarily due to the atmosphere in that time period of challenge to the authority of the church. A more adept politician might have avoided such a conflict, but Galileo overestimated the power of his fame and friendships ( even with the pope) and underestimated the power of his enemies, particularly the Jesuits. Galileo also made the mistake of attempting to show that scripture did not refute his teachings, thus directly challenging the authority of the church to interpret scripture. In addition, the simpleton character in Galileo's newly published Dialogue was widely understood to represent the pope, causing his former friend to become his enemy and setting the stage for his later interrogation, forced confession and recantation. The bible verses shown below were used by his opponents to argue that the scriptures teach that the earth is stationary and that the sun revolves around it.
A. Psalm 93:7 - The Lord reineth. He is clothed with majesty and strength. The world also is established that it cannot be moved. 4

B. Joshua 10:12-13 - ..."Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon". And the sun stood still and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. 2

C. Psalm 19:4-6 - In the heavens hath the Lord set a tabernacle for the sun. Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber. Rejoicing as a giant in running his course. His going forth is from the high heaven. And his circuit unto the ends of it. And there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 4

D. Ecclesiastes 1:5 - The sun rises and sets and returns to his own place. 4



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources
1. Ronan, Colin A., Galileo, 1974, G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York
2. Brodrick, James S.J., Galileo, The Man, His Work, His Misfortunes, 1964, Harper & Row
3. De Santillana, Giorgio, The Crime of Galileo, 1955, University of Chicago Press
4. Reston, James Jr., Galileo, A Life, 1994, Harper Collins

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Jukia

Not skeptical re the resurrection,

Why not?

Also, do you believe that the Gospel writers accurately quoted and/or paraphrased Jesus? In other words, did Jesus actually say the things in the Gospels which are commonly printed in "red letters"?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by YawgmothsAvatar

All those responses you made were not LITERAL intrepretations of the passages.

Not all verses are meant to be interpretted in a woodenly literal manner. The Bible is full of figures of speech, as is our everyday speech.

Do you agree that weather reporters commonly use the expressions "sunrise" and "sunset" even though they know better?

Do you ever refer to "sunrise" or "sunset" when you communicate with others?

 

[Dimo]

Turbo posted this definition of miracle, with which I agree.

"An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God."

Dimo:

Turbo, did you notice the two words "appears inexplicable"?

There are two reasons why an event might "appear inexplicable by the laws of nature".

1.) It is supernatural, and can never be explained by the laws of
nature.

2.) It is beyond our current understanding of the laws of nature, and
will eventually fall under our understanding of the laws of
nature.

The track record for option number 2 is much better than the track record for option number 1.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by bob b

In addition, the simpleton character in Galileo's newly published Dialogue was widely understood to represent the pope, causing his former friend to become his enemy and setting the stage for his later interrogation, forced confession and recantation.

I've heard that many people thought that "Simpleton" represented the pope, but I've also heard that the character actually represented Aristotle. That makes a lot of sense, but I can't remember if Galileo actually stated that anywhere. Do you know, bob b?

 

[Dimo]

Turbo posted:

Not all verses are meant to be interpretted in a woodenly literal manner. The Bible is full of figures of speech, as is our everyday speech.

Dimo:

I agree. That is what makes it such a valuable text to use as a referrence for hope, justice, and morality.

Turbo posted:

Do you agree that weather reporters commonly use the expressions "sunrise" and "sunset" even though they know better?

Dimo:

Yes. So it is possible that when Jesus referred to the six days of creation he could have been using it metaphorically.

Turbo posted:

Do you ever refer to "sunrise" or "sunset" when you communicate with others?

Dimo:

Yes. Just like I often referr to the six days of creation and don't specify that it is metaphorical, when referring to truths about the origins of our human consciousness.

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

I was under the impression that Encyclopedia Brittanica was a reliable source. Apparently I was gravely mistaken.

Not all verses are meant to be interpretted in a woodenly literal manner. The Bible is full of figures of speech, as is our everyday speech.

Do you agree that weather reporters commonly use the expressions "sunrise" and "sunset" even though they know better?

Do you ever refer to "sunrise" or "sunset" when you communicate with others?

Well, since I am not a literal intrepritist of the Bible, my opinion on that doesn't really apply to this question, does it?

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

Sorry, double post.

 

[bob b]

Originally posted by Turbo

I've heard that many people thought that "Simpleton" represented the pope, but I've also heard that the character actually represented Aristotle. That makes a lot of sense, but I can't remember if Galileo actually stated that anywhere. Do you know, bob b?

As far as I know Galileo never stated that anywhere, but recognizing the life long distain he had for Aristotle's scientific ideas (including geocentrism) I would agree that Aristotle was probably what Galileo had in mind. Of course his enemies would have pushed the Pope identification as a way of driving a further wedge between the two former friends, the initial wedge being Galileo's goof in writing a letter to his friend the Pope "instructing" him like a schoolboy on the "proper" interpretation of the verses of scripture some church officials had used to "prove" geocentrism.

 

[Skeptic]

Re: Evolution Inhibits Science Progress

Originally posted by bob b

Such a mindset is proving to be a hindrance to the advance of science

If anything is a hindrance to the advance of science it is the unfounded absurd creationist notion than the universe and life forms supernaturally poofed into existence fully formed.

Science does not have all of the answers. It is terribly naive to think humans ever will posses all of the answers. Yet, it hardly makes any sense to believe that a old book of fairy tales and superstitions, that was written by relatively ignorant religious folks centuries ago, has all of the answers, or any of the answers for that matter.

 

[Jukia]

Skeptic:
You are wasting your breath (or your key strokes). Fundamentalists are happy in their position. They need investigate no further.

 

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Jukia

Skeptic:
You are wasting your breath (or your key strokes). Fundamentalists are happy in their position. They need investigate no further.

I'm a hopeless optimist. I still believe that reason has the power to knock some sense into people - even those who have made up their minds.

 

[jjjg]

That is why I wanted to discuss Galileo under the heading in philosophy. I will argue that Galileo had little in terms of advancing astronomy and the problems he had with the church were caused by several factors.

 

[docpotato]

Originally posted by Nineveh

I was just reading an article about "junk DNA" last night. All that time, effort, and money wasted to finally reach square 1 (it's there for a reason). How far might they be assuming it had a purpose to begin with?

Hey Nineveh!

I just found a long stick with a point at one end. What do you assume it is?

We are not at square 1! We know that some of it is not Junk which means we know more than we did before. It also means that we KNOW THIS and are not just ASSUMING IT!