ECT Entering the Kingdom of God

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New member
Jesus said this:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matt. 11:12 (KJV)

Why did He say that?
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Jesus said this:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matt. 11:12 (KJV)

Why did He say that?

I've always read it that John the Baptist's preparing the way for Christ signaled a change in the earth. That is, that the kingdom which was once assumed under Israel's earthly rule was being manifested in a more personal way. Remembering that this was said in the general context of John's question from prison that expressed some doubt about who Israel was to look for. But more immediately, after Jesus had answered the question, the multitudes who heard the answer to John's question (which answer was "...blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.") were gently chastised by Jesus as He challenges their expectations :

And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Matthew 11:7-10

So there is some special significance to the appearing of John the Baptist. This is a man whose appearance signifies something different - something of a culmination. What culmination?

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Matthew 11:11-14

No longer was the Kingdom a matter of belonging to the nation of Israel - but it was that which "the violent take...by force". That indication of a violent one apparently has to do with one who presses hard to enter. Something which I think is illustrated in Luke's gospel :

And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Luke 13:23-30

The wording of this passage places this striving in the immediate context of Israel and the soon coming sending of the gospel to the rest of the world. The Kingdom would eventually be "given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

The Savior was constantly imploring those He came upon that the Kingdom was not a matter of racial or national membership but rather that it was to "come to them".

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 12:28

The Kingdom of God in terms of rule and authority was all centred in Christ. So His appearing was the event that made it clear (or fulfilled for Israel) all that God was saying under the Old Covenant. That authority and power - that government in a metaphysical sense - was present on earth in the person and actions of Jesus Christ. And what was the response? Hostility.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:34-35

So the violence the Kingdom suffers seems to be Jesus telling the people that they have been pointed to this Kingdom for generations - and now it is upon them. They do not naturally inherit the Kingdom (Jesus could make descendants of Abraham out of the rocks if He wished) but it is something they have to enter into - to receive.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:11-13

So the seeming paradox holds - one must enter into this Kingdom (it is personal, not national and is received only by those who meet the criteria of faith in God) but it is not something that man wrests for himself. In other words, only those that have believed the law and the prophets will even believe that He is the Christ. And those that believed were given power. But they also were not born of blood, the will of man or of the flesh - but of God. Isaiah's prophesying, then, to be done until the people were hearing but not understanding etc... was for this purpose. To weed out those born of God from those not born of God. Or in a temporal sense, to weed out those who had unbelieving hearts.

So when the Kingdom appears, those given that power will strive. Those who are born of God would believe and strive.
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
Jesus said this:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matt. 11:12 (KJV)

Why did He say that?

I said
Which one are you talking about? The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are different.
 

Cross Reference

New member
I've always read it that John the Baptist's preparing the way for Christ signaled a change in the earth. That is, that the kingdom which was once assumed under Israel's earthly rule was being manifested in a more personal way. Remembering that this was said in the general context of John's question from prison that expressed some doubt about who Israel was to look for. But more immediately, after Jesus had answered the question, the multitudes who heard the answer to John's question (which answer was "...blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.") were gently chastised by Jesus as He challenges their expectations :

And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Matthew 11:7-10

So there is some special significance to the appearing of John the Baptist. This is a man whose appearance signifies something different - something of a culmination. What culmination?

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Matthew 11:11-14

No longer was the Kingdom a matter of belonging to the nation of Israel - but it was that which "the violent take...by force". That indication of a violent one apparently has to do with one who presses hard to enter. Something which I think is illustrated in Luke's gospel :

And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Luke 13:23-30

The wording of this passage places this striving in the immediate context of Israel and the soon coming sending of the gospel to the rest of the world. The Kingdom would eventually be "given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

The Savior was constantly imploring those He came upon that the Kingdom was not a matter of racial or national membership but rather that it was to "come to them".

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 12:28

The Kingdom of God in terms of rule and authority was all centred in Christ. So His appearing was the event that made it clear (or fulfilled for Israel) all that God was saying under the Old Covenant. That authority and power - that government in a metaphysical sense - was present on earth in the person and actions of Jesus Christ. And what was the response? Hostility.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:34-35

So the violence the Kingdom suffers seems to be Jesus telling the people that they have been pointed to this Kingdom for generations - and now it is upon them. They do not naturally inherit the Kingdom (Jesus could make descendants of Abraham out of the rocks if He wished) but it is something they have to enter into - to receive.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:11-13

So the seeming paradox holds - one must enter into this Kingdom (it is personal, not national and is received only by those who meet the criteria of faith in God) but it is not something that man wrests for himself. In other words, only those that have believed the law and the prophets will even believe that He is the Christ. And those that believed were given power. But they also were not born of blood, the will of man or of the flesh - but of God. Isaiah's prophesying, then, to be done until the people were hearing but not understanding etc... was for this purpose. To weed out those born of God from those not born of God. Or in a temporal sense, to weed out those who had unbelieving hearts.

So when the Kingdom appears, those given that power will strive. Those who are born of God would believe and strive.

That is some good thinking though things, Nik!

This is what I see and if you can factor it into your above thinking, I believe we can see the striving is behind those who successfully entered and now are given to engage Satan's minions in the Earth.

Remember, Jesus said His kingdom was not of this earth and that we know we wrestle [in the Spirit] against powers and principalities in the [lower] heavenly place [atmosphere], the primer for entering His Kingdom I believe however, the battle though spiritual, has its counterpart in the earth that comes against our flesh, as it did Cain on through to Jesus cf Gen 4:7, for us to overcome to even qualify for the power for going up against Satan after he is kicked out and cast to earth to finish out the short time left him.

Here is what I am getting at:

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, [Kingdom of overcomers now not of this world] and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:10-11 (KJV)

Can we not see that kingdom of God is purely for those who have pressed in to know God at any personal cost in this age per John 17:3 with the reward being as Jesus spoke of it in all its glory, culminating in complete unity in Christ in the Father to eventual rule and reign with Christ with a "rod of iron"!
 

Cross Reference

New member
I said
Which one are you talking about? The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are different.

The verse said Kingdom of God but they are not different as you might believe. Matthew, when he wrote to Jews who he knew would not understand the concept of a kingdom of God called it the kingdom of heaven he knew they would receive. That is why we read of any of a kingdom of heaven in his account. The other parallel gospels, when relating to the kingdom called the same account found in Matthew, "kingdom of God".
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
CrossR,
the violent referred to the zealots. There had been revolts in Judea since 6 AD, first led by Judas the Galilean (ruined that name, didn't he!). The Daniel 8-9 visions said a 'rebellion that desolates' would come 490 years after the decree ending the exile.

They wanted the 'kingdom of God' to be the final answer to foreign occupation, and to be a theocracy, Jn 6. The alternative was the apostles with their Gospel of forgiveness for the whole world, mentioned in too many OT passages to count, but never acknowledged by Judaism.

As trained priests, both Josephus and Caiaphas (Jn 12, 18) knew that a rebellion was coming that would ruin the country. Even though he knew it was prophesied, Caiaphas tried to derail the prophesy and appease Rome by getting rid of Jesus. Judaism generally puts much more weight on law than prophets. Pilate could not be persuaded that Jesus would cause any danger to Rome, so the final vote went to those in the courtyard with the loudest voices. And who had been most poisoned by the zealots who wanted all out war.

Do history first, then theology.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You need to read the Bible in the most ordinary sense that you can until there is no possible way to do so. Then you can flit all over.

Find a good book on Judaism's zealots in the 1st century.
Hengel
Rhoads
Keller
Gaston
Bright
Grant (the main British historian of Israel-Rome relations in the 1st century)
Toynbee
...these are some of the main ones.

Dr Phillips (same as Phillips NT version) did quite a bit of work with the writer of the 70s 14 hr film W. Barclay on JESUS OF NAZARETH to spell out what the zealots were doing. Check the early segments. But also keep an eye on Barrabas.

Notice how much zeal/zealous shows up in Romans and Galatians.
 

Cross Reference

New member
You need to read the Bible in the most ordinary sense that you can until there is no possible way to do so. Then you can flit all over.

Find a good book on Judaism's zealots in the 1st century.
Hengel
Rhoads
Keller
Gaston
Bright
Grant (the main British historian of Israel-Rome relations in the 1st century)
Toynbee
...these are some of the main ones.

Dr Phillips (same as Phillips NT version) did quite a bit of work with the writer of the 70s 14 hr film W. Barclay on JESUS OF NAZARETH to spell out what the zealots were doing. Check the early segments. But also keep an eye on Barrabas.

Notice how much zeal/zealous shows up in Romans and Galatians.

All, totally irrelevant.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Do you know what Iscariot means? As in Judas Iscariot? Do you know why people in Jerusalem dissed people from Galilee?

Those authors are the best materials available for the modern audience. Of course you can take 5 years and master Greek and Latin and read the original sources yourself.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Do you know what Iscariot means? As in Judas Iscariot? Do you know why people in Jerusalem dissed people from Galilee?

Contributes nothing to any Christ centered life changing relationship.

Those authors are the best materials available for the modern audience. Of course you can take 5 years and master Greek and Latin and read the original sources yourself.

Why go through all that human reasoning when I have my Bible (KJV and about 10-15 translations plus an interlinear Greek trans, a talking Strong's concordance, Vines, 3-4 Dictionaries, encyclopedias, ete,etc.) and most importantly the Holy Spirit and 77 years of living under my belt, all of it as an incomplete child of God in the process of becoming a son of God.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
The verse said Kingdom of God but they are not different as you might believe. Matthew, when he wrote to Jews who he knew would not understand the concept of a kingdom of God called it the kingdom of heaven he knew they would receive. That is why we read of any of a kingdom of heaven in his account. The other parallel gospels, when relating to the kingdom called the same account found in Matthew, "kingdom of God".



Hi and the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are used inter-changeable in the book of Matthew and Jesus PREACHED thr Kingdom of Heaven in Matt 4:17 and command His disciples to PREACH it in Matt 10:2-10 !!

The Kingdom of Heaven is the Millennium or 1000 year reign of Christ !!

In Luke 20:14 men thought that they could wrest the King of Heaven from Christ !!

dan p
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
It is a worthwhile note about Lk 20, however no one in the NT says the kingdom of God is millenial. It is present, it is at work; the term is actually the 'reign' focusing on his position of authority over all rather than a place you can draw on a map.

Rom 14: the kingdom of God is not food or drink (trying to pick the proper kinds) but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
It is a worthwhile note about Lk 20, however no one in the NT says the kingdom of God is millenial. It is present, it is at work; the term is actually the 'reign' focusing on his position of authority over all rather than a place you can draw on a map.

Rom 14: the kingdom of God is not food or drink (trying to pick the proper kinds) but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Hi , so give a verse that explains what you just wrote !!

dan p
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You just have to gather characteristics. It is present yet it goes on forever. Lk 4:43. 6:20. 7:28. 11:20.

None of these are remote. The Rom 14 is v17.
 

Cross Reference

New member
It is a worthwhile note about Lk 20, however no one in the NT says the kingdom of God is millenial. It is present, it is at work; the term is actually the 'reign' focusing on his position of authority over all rather than a place you can draw on a map.

Rom 14: the kingdom of God is not food or drink (trying to pick the proper kinds) but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Indeed, it is a work in progress in possessing it by individuals that will cease at whatever level they possess it when it comes upon Earth in that day.

How you can even begin to embrace that thinking to discuss it is beyond me.
 
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