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Jesus was BOTH God and man. So no contradiction at all.A distinction suggests the two are compatible, i.e., not contradictory. "Mortal" is contradictory to "immortal".
Jesus was BOTH God and man. So no contradiction at all.A distinction suggests the two are compatible, i.e., not contradictory. "Mortal" is contradictory to "immortal".
You're reading too much into those three words.Agreed
Agreed, but that cements my point, that He was at one time mortal, despite being immortal at the same time.
Acts 13:34 KJV — And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Can "never return to corruption" mean anything if He was never subject to corruption?
2 Corinthians 13:4 NKJV — For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
Could He be crucified in weakness if He was never weak?
No, I'm saying that there's a conflict between His divine and His human natures, at least before His resurrection.
Do you consider yourself to be a Christian? Are you suggesting that anyone who seeks to understand the trinity isn't a Christian?
I can detect no difference between what you are arguing and the Calvinist hypostatic union doctrine. I have no problem at all believing that you reject the Calvinist rational for this doctrine, which is the reason I brought it up. The point being that if you reject the rational for the doctrine, why do you retain the doctrine?@Clete Please don't try to tag us with believing Calvinist doctrine.
Using that phrasing as a "manner of speaking" is quite different than holding to a specific doctrine, right?I understand that you believe that the union of God and man in Christ makes a new unique nature. I can see why you argue that and in many ways I agree with it. And yet we both still talk about Jesus as BOTH God and man. And that's TWO things.
So let's agree that BOTH views are compatible with reality.
I don't disagree with you that Jesus didn't see corruption, as David did. My point was that He was subject to (capable of experiencing) corruption and weak--because He became a human being. Those are human characteristics, not divine ones. Thus Jesus's godly qualities are at the very least muted, if not completely given up for the time before His resurrection. And I don't know what "muted immortality" looks like.You're reading too much into those three words.
Acts13:33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:‘You are My Son,Today I have begotten You.’34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm:‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.For "corruption" read "decay" as my NKJV correctly points out. It's Strong's G1312...
diaphthora:
- corruption, destruction
- in the NT that destruction which is effected by the decay of the body after death
Luke is drawing a parallel between David, who did decay and Jesus, the Seed of David, who did not see decay.
In short, there is no conflict between Christ's divinity and His humanity. Jesus was both. It isn't that He was God and He was a man as though the two remained separated and Jesus was some sort of bifurcated thing. No! The two had become one in Christ and, as such, He was and is the Godman.
Well, perhaps.I don't disagree with you that Jesus didn't see corruption, as David did. My point was that He was subject to (capable of experiencing) corruption and weak--because He became a human being. Those are human characteristics, not divine ones. Thus Jesus's godly qualities are at the very least muted, if not completely given up for the time before His resurrection. And I don't know what "muted immortality" looks like.
I know that you and I like to bang heads. We are both very pedantic and stubborn.I have no problem with saying that God is both God and man.
I can live with that.I know that you and I like to bang heads. We are both very pedantic and stubborn.
I will agree with with you that the GodMan has a single nature..... But that nature is twofold.
You, yourself, have agreed on multiple occasions that Jesus is God AND man. So I will leave it at that.
I think it is mainly saying that He could die, and His body could decay. He was resurrected before the decay happened.Well, perhaps.
I can't put my finger on it, but, intuitively (and I'm the opposite of a strong intuitive), there's something about the notion that Jesus was weak and subject to corruption that doesn't sit well in my brain.
Christ had no sin, no sin nature, no "leaven", thus, no, I don't think His body would have ever decayed. Being three days dead is more than long enough to stink up the place. If He hadn't started by then, He wasn't going to start at all.I think it is mainly saying that He could die, and His body could decay. He was resurrected before the decay happened.
This depends on what you means by "death happened" to Christ. Yes, Jesus died but not because He wasn't divine. Angels aren't divine and they don't die. Jesus died because He chose to lay down His own life and so it didn't so much happen to Him as He just did it. It did happen but because He willingly let it happen. Do you see the distinction?Here's another verse:
2 Peter 1:4 NKJV — by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
It also contrasts divine nature with corruption. Jesus would have had nothing to do with the lust, but it sounds like it is a contrast between life and death. And death happened to Christ.
That's an interesting idea, but I don't know if you could back it up with scripture, any more than I could refute it with scripture. Death was a result of sin, but Jesus still died, so I don't see how the corruption of the body is any different.Christ had no sin, no sin nature, no "leaven", thus, no, I don't think His body would have ever decayed. Being three days dead is more than long enough to stink up the place. If He hadn't started by then, He wasn't going to start at all.
I wasn't trying to say it was random or something, but it happened (as you stated), however it happened, to God? I wasn't trying to say there are no other beings that live forever, but that humans are subject to death and divine beings aren't. Do you understand my distinction? Humans can die, Divine beings can't. We know that humans could die even from the very beginning, because God told Adam that he would die if he ate of the tree. So they were subject to death--it was possible for them to die--even if they didn't eat of the tree. Forgive me if my wording isn't accurate as I try to describe my intention.This depends on what you means by "death happened" to Christ. Yes, Jesus died but not because He wasn't divine. Angels aren't divine and they don't die. Jesus died because He chose to lay down His own life and so it didn't so much happen to Him as He just did it. It did happen but because He willingly let it happen. Do you see the distinction?
Death (and decay of our body) is a consequence of sin. Levin is a symbol of sin precisely because it is a decay process (See I Corinthians 5).That's an interesting idea, but I don't know if you could back it up with scripture, any more than I could refute it with scripture. Death was a result of sin, but Jesus still died, so I don't see how the corruption of the body is any different.
I wasn't trying to say it was random or something, but it happened (as you stated), however it happened, to God?
I wasn't trying to say there are no other beings that live forever, but that humans are subject to death and divine beings aren't.
Do you understand my distinction? Humans can die, Divine beings can't.
We know that humans could die even from the very beginning, because God told Adam that he would die if he ate of the tree. So they were subject to death--it was possible for them to die--even if they didn't eat of the tree.
Forgive me if my wording isn't accurate as I try to describe my intention.