El-o-Hym = El-o-Human = All-Human = No ego

[beameup]

On the other hand I am more interested in looking at “Elohim” and what this term signifies

Then Elohim said, “Let us make mankind
in our image, after our likeness - Genesis 1:26a ESV
So Elohim created man in his own image,
in the image of Elohim he created him;
male and female he created them. - Genesis 1:27 ESV

Yes, I can see how Elohim might be too "alien" a concept for you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

Just in case you have a short memory, in Post #4 of this thread I defined how I understood the word Elohim, and also explained my understanding of the plural “IM”.

Elohim is a Hebrew word and one definition is "Mighty Ones". The "El" portion represents "Power or Strength". The "im" portion is a Hebrew plural. Even though the word is plural, the verb used is usually singular, i.e. Mighty Ones (he) created. My understanding of this plural noun/singular verb combination is that it represents the One God working through many agents, in this case God working through the angels to create the world.

In response at first in Posts #6 and #13 you insisted that the PLURAL must be three, but later you accepted 3+.

It's "PLURAL" for a good reason; that's because God is "plural". In Hebrew a "plural" is three.
In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth - Genesis 1:1
The angels had nothing to do with it.

Elohim is the creator. Elohim is a tri-plural. Elohim is a unity.
I suggest you combine the truths revealed in this tri-verse concerning the triune God:

But now you are reverting to your original concept, simply stating that ElohIM is plural, and in effect ignoring all that has been discussed. Yes, I agree Elohim is plural, representing Yahweh, the One God the Father, working through numerous agents, and in this case of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:26-27 these agents or ministers are the Angels. If you carefully consider all of Genesis chapters 1-3, with this concept in mind, we will discover that the interaction between Elohim and Adam is actually an interaction between the Angels and Adam.

Then Elohim said, “Let us make mankind
in our image, after our likeness - Genesis 1:26a ESV
So Elohim created man in his own image,
in the image of Elohim he created him;
male and female he created them. - Genesis 1:27 ESV

Yes, I can see how Elohim might be too "alien" a concept for you.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,
Kind regards
Trevor

Like I indicated, the Godhead is an enigma when using "human logic".
I gave you the illustration between "pair" (2) and "few" 3+
In Elohim there is no provision for a "pair" (2), it must be at least 3.
This is in Biblical Hebrew. I have no idea what gyrations that Jews
have used in "Modern Hebrew" to escape this grammatical FACT that God is 3.

I'm certain that the ancient Hebrews understood this; however, in the Scriptures
it is still a gradual evolving revelation of the true nature of God due to
the extensive efforts of the Devil to hide God's true nature and being from man.

Come ye near unto ME, hear ye this;
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
from the time that it was, there am I:
and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent ME. -- Isaiah 48:16

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

Like I indicated, the Godhead is an enigma when using "human logic".
I gave you the illustration between "pair" (2) and "few" 3+
In Elohim there is no provision for a "pair" (2), it must be at least 3.
This is in Biblical Hebrew. I have no idea what gyrations that Jews
have used in "Modern Hebrew" to escape this grammatical FACT that God is 3.

Again when considering Elohim, you insist on the Trinity, which is a 3rd or 4th Century concept, based on Greek philosophical ideas, by Greek philosophers who did not understand the Hebrew basis of the NT. I suggest that those that understand Biblical Hebrew understand the language and would not agree with your suggestions and your various desperate attempts to find the Trinity in the OT. It certainly is not there, nor in the NT.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[chair]

In Elohim there is no provision for a "pair" (2), it must be at least 3.
This is in Biblical Hebrew. I have no idea what gyrations that Jews
have used in "Modern Hebrew" to escape this grammatical FACT that God is 3...

Both in Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew plural is plural. i.e. more than one. The only "gyrations" here are your attempts to pretend that in Biblical Hebrew the plural only refers to three or more.

If you insist on this, then please bring a source that tries to prove it.

If you want examples of two being in the plural, try Numbers 28, verses 9 and 11

Chair

 

[beameup]

Greetings again beameup,
Again when considering Elohim, you insist on the Trinity, which is a 3rd or 4th Century concept, based on Greek philosophical ideas, by Greek philosophers who did not understand the Hebrew basis of the NT. I suggest that those that understand Biblical Hebrew understand the language and would not agree with your suggestions and your various desperate attempts to find the Trinity in the OT. It certainly is not there, nor in the NT.

Kind regards
Trevor

At Sinai, the Hebrews clearly saw and understood God in human form:
Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. - Exodus 24:10
--------------------------------
In Daniel, we clearly see the ancient Hebrew belief of "Two Powers in Heaven" illustrated:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. - Daniel 7:13 This Hebrew theology was abandoned following the rejection of Messiah.
------------------------------
Previously posted was Isaiah 48:16, where we see all 3 of the Godhead in one verse.
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (1), and his Spirit (3), hath sent me (2).
----------------------------------
The Old Testament is full of appearances of #2 of the Godhead, and he was worshipped.
The full revelation of the New Testament is crystal clear, so you can "run but you cannot hide".

 

[beameup]

Both in Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew plural is plural. i.e. more than one. The only "gyrations" here are your attempts to pretend that in Biblical Hebrew the plural only refers to three or more.

If you insist on this, then please bring a source that tries to prove it.

If you want examples of two being in the plural, try Numbers 28, verses 9 and 11

Chair

So, you are saying that God is a pair (2).
The BCE Jewish theology was "Two Powers in Heaven", as illustrated in Daniel 7:13.
However, taking into account the Ruach Elohim, you have Three composing the Godhead.
This theology was rejected post 70AD for obvious reasons.

 

[chair]

So, you are saying that God is a pair (2).

I am not saying any such thing. I am saying that your claim that the plural in Biblical Hebrew implies three (3) is complete and utter nonsense.

Unless you can show some support for that idea, it is nonsense. On a linguistic level, and plain common sense level.

 

[beameup]

I am not saying any such thing. I am saying that your claim that the plural in Biblical Hebrew implies three (3) is complete and utter nonsense.

Unless you can show some support for that idea, it is nonsense. On a linguistic level, and plain common sense level.

So you are saying that in Hebrew you don't have a plural suffix as well as a dual form suffix?

Then אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

 

[chair]

So you are saying that in Hebrew you don't have a plural suffix as well as a dual form suffix?

There is a dual suffix for things that come in pairs. As in a pair of eyes, or pair of hands. It is spelled with two "yod". But that does not make all other uses of the plural "3 or more". One can, and does talk of Two Bulls, as in the verses in Numbers, using the simple plural. And it certainly does not imply 3 bulls.

Who taught you this foolishness?

 

[beameup]

There is a dual suffix for things that come in pairs. As in a pair of eyes, or pair of hands. It is spelled with two "yod". But that does not make all other uses of the plural "3 or more".

Is God a "dual" or a "plural" in Genesis 1:26?
So אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym created man in his own image,
in the image of אֱלֹהִים created he him; male and female created he them.
Take your time...

 

[chair]

Is God a "dual" or a "plural" in Genesis 1:26?
So אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym created man in his own image,
in the image of אֱלֹהִים created he him; male and female created he them.
Take your time...

Plural. And that does not mean he is three or more.
Have you bothered reading anything that I post?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again beameup,

Elohim has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the elohim he holds judgment Psalm 82:1

I believe this is speaking of Yahweh (singular) through his angels (Elohim - plural) is judging the unjust judges in Israel (Elohim - plural). Refer John 10:30-36. It has nothing to do with the Trinity except to refute the claim.

I noticed that you did not respond to my comment above, and I am not sure if you agreed or disagreed. Also you did not agree with my comments on Psalm 8:5 where the Angels are called Elohim, directly summarising and commenting on Genesis 1:26-27. Both of these give an understanding of the OT meaning of the word Elohim, and would give a better understanding of Elohim as it is used in Genesis 1:1, 26-27.

I thought it expedient to post an explanation of Elohim as applied to the Judges in Israel, as the concept is similar to Elohim when applied to the Angels. In both instances I believe Elohim represents Yahweh, the One God, the Father working in and through his agents, either the Angels or Judges.

Many Trinitarians use John 10:30 in support of their beliefs. There is a need to look carefully at what Jesus actually says in v30, and also his explanation and response to the Jews.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In response to the false accusation by the Jews, Jesus also answers by speaking concerning the OT usage of the word “God”, “gods”, that is the Hebrew word “Elohim”, quoting Psalm 82:6, the Psalm that you introduced. Jesus speaks concerning the fact that in the OT the judges were called God or gods. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Here Elohim does not represent two or three in the plural of Elohim, as there were 70 Judges who were called Elohim, either individually or collectively.

Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He represented God and also could be called Elohim individually. A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He was united with His Father in character and works.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

One of the most important Scripture that reveals the OT use of Yahweh and Elohim, usually translated LORD and God in the KJV, is the following. Moses recorded what was spoken, but also adds various comments under inspiration, and it is important to note some of the unique expressions used.

Exodus 3:1 (KJV): 1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

It is important to note that it was the Angel of Yahweh that appeared to Moses. It was not Yahweh Himself, and therefore it was not God in the English sense of the word. But note v4, it is Elohim that calls unto Moses out of the midst of the bush. This Angel also states “I am the Elohim of thy father, the Elohim of Abraham”. And Moses records that he was afraid to look upon Elohim. And then in v7 the Angel speaks as if he was Yahweh: “Yahweh said …I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians”. The conclusion that can be gathered from all of this is that the Angel represents God the Father, and speaks on His behalf, as if the Angel is God Himself, and both the Name of God, Yahweh and the title Elohim are directly used when describing the Angel.

When considered, as this is Moses’ first encounter with an Angel, and even though it appears in the Second Book of Moses, Exodus, it establishes the use of these unique Hebrew words and ideas, not only in the Books of Moses, but all of the OT. This is especially relevant with regard to the Angels in Genesis 1-3, Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5 and the Judges in Exodus 21:6 and elsewhere. It also helps to explain John 20:28.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

It is important to note that it was the Angel of Yahweh that appeared to Moses. Kind regards
Trevor

The Angel of YHVH is none other than the pre-incarnate Jesus (Yeshua). That is just one of his many titles. Note that whenever asked his NAME, he declines to give it (in the O.T.).
BTW, the "im" ending on a Hebrew word means plural (3 or more). Elohim is plural. You have been led down the wrong "path".

 

[chair]

BTW, the "im" ending on a Hebrew word means plural (3 or more)..

No. No. No.

Why do you insist on this nonsense. Why is "im" used to indicate two cows, if it is "3 or more"?

 

[beameup]

No. No. No.

Why do you insist on this nonsense. Why is "im" used to indicate two cows, if it is "3 or more"?

שְׁנַיִם shᵉnayim is two (2)
פָּרָה pârâh is cow
TWO WORDS, NOT A SUFFIX, knucklehead

Elohim is a plural form of eloh
Therefore God is a plural - always has been, always will be

Come ye near unto ME, hear ye this;
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
from the time that it was, there am I: and now
the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent ME. - Isaiah 48:16

 

[chair]

שְׁנַיִם shᵉnayim is two (2)
פָּרָה pârâh is cow
TWO WORDS, NOT A SUFFIX, knucklehead

Elohim is a plural form of eloh
Therefore God is a plural - always has been, always will be

what is the plural of "bull"?
What is the plural of "sheep"
How does one say "2 sheep"? How about "3 sheep"?

The plural in Hebrew does not imply 3 or more.

And if you are going to argue about Hebrew, you should learn about suffixes in Hebrew.

Best keep you comments about my intelligence to yourself, until this is sorted out, oh wise one.

 

[jamie]

what is the plural of "bull"?
What is the plural of "sheep"
How does one say "2 sheep"? How about "3 sheep"?

what is the plural of "bull"? - bullim
What is the plural of "sheep" - sheepim
How does one say "2 sheep"? - coupla sheepim
How about "3 sheep"? - more sheepims

OK, that's my thought.

 

[chair]

what is the plural of "bull"? - bullim
What is the plural of "sheep" - sheepim
How does one say "2 sheep"? - coupla sheepim
How about "3 sheep"? - more sheepims

OK, that's my thought.

You're much closer than beameup is