I can google any number of whacky ideas and get a lot of hits. I'm sure if you were to conduct a proper study you would find that most people do not have an agenda that involves the active condemnation of homosexuality.
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I can google any number of whacky ideas and get a lot of hits. I'm sure if you were to conduct a proper study you would find that most people do not have an agenda that involves the active condemnation of homosexuality.
MacDiarmaid
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While reading the recently "discovered" book "Protocols of the Elders of Fire Island" I presume?
Most people? I never said a word about "most people". I was only speaking about Conservative, Christians such as...
Abiding Truth Ministries at www.abidingtruth.com
American Vision at www.americanvision.org
Chalcedon Foundation at www.chalcedon.edu
Family Research Institute at www.familyresearchinst.org
Mass Resistance at www.massresistance.org
Traditional Values Coalition at www.traditionalvalues.org
Watchmen on the Walls at www.watchmenonthewalls.com
Westboro Baptist Church at www.godhatesfags.com
All of which have an agenda which involves active condemnation of homosexuality.
Oh! So you think it's strange that organisations that base themselves on God's word believe God's word?
I've already stated exactly what I think of these kind of so called Christians and their agenda against homosexuality...
"The irony in doing so is that some give it so much attention that other values and morals that are proclaimed as necessary for the preservation of traditional institutions, seem to be pushed to the wayside in the fervor to constantly address the homosexual threat.
It's hilarious in how self destructive it is! It's a repetition of history, just like the Salem Witch trials or the Red Scare of the McCarthy era. People get so caught up in fighting some perceived adversarial force, whether it is the devil, communism, or now homosexuality, that fear and paranoia reign and people's attention is on rooting out the "wicked" instead of being good people."
If you believe that God's word means pretending that homosexuals are out to get ya, and dedicating immense time and resources to that fear and paranoia, then all I have is pity and disdain for you.
DBCReviewer
New member
Hey,
Am I the only one who noticed this? Do you know of another post/blog/forum that talks about it?
To start... I found a note the other day reminding me that on this broadcast day (the 19th), it also included a call from a guy named Ray who called into the program and told Bob that God had told him something.
After Bob hangs up with Ray, Bob then talks about, if you think that God has told you something and it doesn't come to pass or isn't right... then what we should do to you is what they were told to do with them in the O.T. = stone them to death.
He said this to dissapoint people from saying or thinking that God could tell them anything about another person or a particular situation.
So, be forewarned listener... more than likely God won't speak and tell you anything about another indiviual (or something), and that no one should ever say God told me.
I'd like to comment about that, but alas, I cannot find the topic spoken about anywhere. Any help from you Jefferson or other seasoned TOL people? DBCR.
Am I the only one who noticed this? Do you know of another post/blog/forum that talks about it?
To start... I found a note the other day reminding me that on this broadcast day (the 19th), it also included a call from a guy named Ray who called into the program and told Bob that God had told him something.
After Bob hangs up with Ray, Bob then talks about, if you think that God has told you something and it doesn't come to pass or isn't right... then what we should do to you is what they were told to do with them in the O.T. = stone them to death.
He said this to dissapoint people from saying or thinking that God could tell them anything about another person or a particular situation.
So, be forewarned listener... more than likely God won't speak and tell you anything about another indiviual (or something), and that no one should ever say God told me.
I'd like to comment about that, but alas, I cannot find the topic spoken about anywhere. Any help from you Jefferson or other seasoned TOL people? DBCR.
Yes, Persephone66, it looks "really bad," I agree
Yes, Persephone66, it looks "really bad," I agree
P, even in your denial, you know the truth. Reminds me of two women getting married in a tux and a gown. That was more common until conservatives widely pointed out that even in their denial, they were affirming that God made them male and female.
Yes Persephone66, it all looks really bad, whether it's publicized or not, because it is really bad.
-Bob Enyart
KGOV.com
Yes, Persephone66, it looks "really bad," I agree
P, even in your denial, you know the truth. Reminds me of two women getting married in a tux and a gown. That was more common until conservatives widely pointed out that even in their denial, they were affirming that God made them male and female.
Yes Persephone66, it all looks really bad, whether it's publicized or not, because it is really bad.
-Bob Enyart
KGOV.com
What is the truth? That your particular interpretation of the Bible is that homosexuality is bad? Of all the interpretations of the Bible throughout recorded history, yours just happens to be the right one? That Paul and his conceptions of gender roles are right simply because that is what it says in the Bible?
I love how every individual arrogantly believes that they know the Truth, when generally they are historically and social scientifically ignorant.
Prolifeguyswife
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You're missing something...homosexuality is not just a "perceived" threat. It's a disgusting practice that hurts those who practice it. When I was growing up, it was always explained to me that God's directions for our lives are for a reason - He doesn't want us to do evil things. And not just because they hurt Him - but because they hurt us. In that regard, homosexuality is like other wrong things that we do - they hurt us deeply as we're doing them.
It's not just "attacking a perceived threat instead of sticking to its message" - that is the message. There are absolute rights and wrongs, and we have to stand up for what is right.
First off, explain how homosexuality within a monogamous relationship is harmful to those who practice it. I have yet to hear a Christian provide a truly valid answer to this. They always seem to recognize that it isn't physically or emotionally harmful, so they argue that it is "spiritually harmful," which goes back to their own particular interpretation of the Bible.
Second, most adults learn to think for themselves instead of "what they were told". And to be frank, I don't really care about your subjective interpretation of God. Just as I told Mr. Enyart, you have no basis to argue that your interpretation of scripture is any better or worse than any other person's interpretation. In fact, what basis can you argue that your interpretation is the right one? Just because it was "what you were told"?
I'm standing up for what is right. Gay people should have equality and the right to spend their life with the person they love. That is the message God has delivered to me.
Prolifeguyswife
New member
It's not physically harmful? Are you serious?
One of California's most influential Gay/Lesbian Organizations even ran an ad campaign stating that HIV is a gay disease. The same article mentions that 75% of HIV cases were from gay men.
As far as the emotional risks, besides the "spiritually harmful" aspect, you've never read the studies about suicide and depression risks for homosexuals? Here's one study on the suicide risks, but I've read dozens of others.
Further, I don't have to rely on my "own interpretation of the Bible." The Bible is very, very clear on homosexuality.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
No interpretation necessary. The truth is plain as day. If you are able to read, you are able to understand what the Bible says about homosexuality. My four-year-old understands it without explanation, why can't you?
You are hearing a false 'god'. God would not write scriptures that are very clear on the subject, then reveal something else to you. At the moment, it may be legally right for a gay person to spend their life with a homosexual partner, but it will never be morally right.
You obviously missed the part where I said, "monogamous". HIV is a disease of promiscuity. You can get it if you are gay or straight. It does not discriminate. It is just more easily transmitted via anal sex, which disregards lesbians who practice one of the safest forms of sex when it comes to the disease. Your overgeneralization of it as a "gay disease" is the sort of attitude which makes a lot of young heterosexual people feel they are safe from the disease. But if you are in a monogamous relationship with a clean partner, there is no way you can get HIV, so your argument is irrelevant. It really isn't anymore physically harmful than a heterosexual relationship.
Internalized homophobia as a result of society's stigma towards homosexuality is was results in higher depression and suicide rates. In essence, it is attitudes like yours that is emotionally harmful to gay and lesbian youths, not their sexual orientation. I highly recommend you watch the movie "Prayers for Bobby" because you remind me of the mother in that movie.
No, it isn't.
Paul made his arguments based on his interpretation of the Old Testament and what he personally saw taking place at the time he was alive. In Rome, there was a practice called pedestry in which older men took young boys as their sexual partners. Today we would call this pedophilia but in the time it was the perception of homosexuality. That perception is no way the same as two consenting adult same sex partners of comparable age who are forming a monogamous relationship. Paul also made interpretations of gender roles based upon the long standing patriarchy. In short, if you really took his arguments literally then you wouldn't even be talking to me because of what it says in 1 Timothy 2:18 "No woman shall teach or hold a position of authority over a man." For a man to have sex with another man was seen to be degrading to the man in the submissive role since that was the woman's role. Paul also made his arguments on the basis of teleology in which he derived the only natural purpose of sex was procreation, and of course, if sex is defined in that way then homosexuality doesn't fall within his definition. However, Paul is not God and so his definitions are limited to his own fallibility as a man living at that time.
Because I'm not historically ignorant and I know enough to critically question things instead of simply accepting the interpretation that has been handed down to me.
Perhaps you are the one who is listening to a false god. One of your own making that is based upon your subjective and traditional interpretation of a book which has a long history of oppression. It will never be morally right for people to deny others their right to be with the person they love.
So I repose my question to you, "How do you know your interpretation is the right one?"
Prolifeguyswife
New member
I didn't generalize it as a "gay disease", the gay/lesbian organization did that - although I think they were right on that point. I agree that HIV is a problem among the promiscuous, but statistically, it is more dangerous physically to be a homosexual male than a heterosexual one in regards to HIV. You can't deny statistics.
I don't think so. I think that's what the gay community wants people to think, but the homosexuals I know struggle with depression and self-worth because they are unhappy in their lifestyle. This guy Rob, for example, hates the fact that he is attracted to other men, knows that it's wrong, but isn't willing to give it up. The internal conflict makes him depressed, not people around him.
1. While it's true that Paul is not God, you are discounting God's words in the Holy Bible that He gave to us.
2. There is no 1 Timothy 2:18, which leads me to believe that you really have zero knowledge of the Bible.
No disrespect lady, but one of the first rules of statistics is you do deny them because they can be made to say whatever you want them to say. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to HIV, a homosexual man in a monogamous relationship with a clean partner is in no greater danger than a heterosexual man in a relationship with a clean partner. Your statistics say a lot more about promiscuity within the gay culture than the danger of contracting HIV from gay relationships.
Considering that you would inherently believe Rob is a danger to your children, based on statistics you accept on this forum, I somehow doubt you are close enough to him to know how he feels.
1. I'm interpreting the Bible. You are doing the exact same thing. You just feel your interpretation is the right one, so you don't recognize it as it is, your subjective interpretation.
2. That was a typo. 1 Timothy 2:11-12
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Prolifeguyswife
New member
So you deny the statistics, yet insist that there is no greater danger? Based on what, your feelings?
Deny statistics if you want, but don't expect me to take your word for the fact that homosexuals are in no greater danger than anyone else for AIDs. Making things up to soothe your conscience won't take you far.
Am I in authority over you? No. Apparently I'm not teaching you anything, either.
The Bible says to rightly divide the word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15). The Bible says in Genesis 19, Jude 7, Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 that homosexuality is wrong. It is an abomination to God. And those are just some of the verses! Say what you want about interpretation, but unless you're a total moron (which, and I'm not sure about this, but you seem intelligent enough to reason this out) you understand that homosexuality is not OK with God. The Bible repeats it over and over again. There is only one way to interpret these verses!
If there's any question about how God views homosexuals, read this:
Jude 7
"Jud 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
The Bible says that homosexuals SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. That doesn't make it clear to you?
Can two disease-free heterosexuals in a monogamous relationship give one another AIDS?
Can two disease-free homosexuals in a monogamous relationship give one another AIDS?
I'm not making it up. It's simple logic. As I have repeatedly stated, HIV is a disease of promiscuity. You can't get it if you don't sleep around, regardless of whether you are gay or straight. If you are gay and you are in a monogamous relationship with a clean partner, you cannot get HIV. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Your statistics are completely irrelevant to that simple fact. And here is a crazy idea. Perhaps more gays would be monogamous if they were allowed to marry!
It also says a woman shall remain silent.
Old Testament quotes eh? I suppose that means you also believe these?
Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
There goes Red Lobster.
Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
Well there goes anyone who commits adultery.
Deut 21:18-21
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.
There goes rebellious teenagers.
Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
There goes anyone who works on a Sunday.
And yet I don't see you putting in anywhere near as much condemnation of seafood eaters, adulterers, rebellious teenagers, and Sabbath scabs as I see you putting toward homosexuality. Seems like you do a bit of cherry picking from your Holy Scripture.
I've already stated what Paul would have considered homosexuality and it is no way the same thing as two consenting adults in a monogamous relationship. Also he believed firmly in gender roles as is evident by his interpretations of the Old Testament. But I don't really care all that much about Paul's interpretations because I have my own, just as you have yours. It's not even clear whether Paul ever intended have his letters in the Holy Scriptures.
In fact the word "homosexual" wasn't even invented until the late 19th century by psychologists. It's ironic that people use a word in translations of the Bible that didn't even exist at that time. Before that the word "sodomite" was a blanket term for anyone who committed acts which were seen as sexual immoralities.
Actually its interesting you bring Sodom and Gomorrah. The Judaic interpretation of the sin of Sodom was inhospitably. It is actually the Islamic interpretation of Sodom that says it was about a sexual immorality. In fact, I find that story to be hilarious since you have a group of men lining up outside Lot's house ready to gang rape the angels as was a common practice of humiliation at that time, and the guy actually offered his own daughters in place of the angels. I don't think he wins father of the year award for that act. But the fact of the matter is that they were going to rape the angels. They were rapists, not homosexuals.
The Bible says that pedophiles and rapists are sinners. It has been historically mistranslated and interpreted to mean homosexuals. Also the whole "eternal fire" thing tends to spring from Dante's inferno, not from the actual Bible.
You may think it is cut and dry, but the reality is that I don't see you stoning mouthy teenagers to death or boycotting Red Lobster for their immorality. All I see is someone who thinks they know something about the Bible but actually is going off what they were told the verses mean as opposed to actually understanding them in their historical context. You are as Paul stated, a slave to the law.
Prolifeguyswife
New member
It IS cut and dry. The historical context IS just how it says in the Bible - homosexuality is immoral. It is wrong. It is an abomination to God.
Yes, adultery is a crime that should be punishable by the death penalty. God's criminal justice system is outlined clearly in the Bible, and shows that homosexuality is also a crime punishable by the death penalty. Just because we can repent and receive God's gracious salvation, doesn't mean we are exempt from earthly penalties for what we've done wrong.
Before Jesus died for us, he reaffirmed the Mosaic law, including the "mouthy teenager" law, in Mark 7.
I'm actually offended that you're using the Bible to defend your perversity. It's clear, over and over again, that God views homosexuality as an abomination. You can keep trying to explain it away, but your explanations blaspheme God's word and make you look foolish.
Jude 7 makes it clear that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah were made an example of because of their homosexuality, not just because of their desire to rape.
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless... and for sinners... for murderers... for sodomites, for kidnappers... 1 Tim. 1:8-10
I think sinner and sodomite describe your views pretty accurately. You should be trembling with fear of God and His words, acknowledging your sin and willing to give it up to be right with God.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal. 3:24-25
You haven't come to the faith in Christ or believe in the Bible, so you are not justified. Use the law as a tutor, and see that what you believe is false doctrine and a desperate justification for thwarting God's plan.
You clearly don't know anything about the history.
A Christian who actually lives by the old Testament? Interesting.
Interesting interpretation.
I'm offended that people like you are using a perverse interpretation of the Bible to justify your bigotry and drive young gays and lesbians to kill themselves. You can keep trying to explain it away but your explanation blaspheme God's word and makes you look foolish.
No, it makes it clear that was how it was interpreted.
I like Timothy. Especially that part where is says women should remain silent. He was Paul's disciple, so he shares Paul's interpretations. So what?
I believe in a loving and nurturing God. One who wants me to be happy and who wishes me to love others just as I love myself so that I can best love him.
As I've said before, that is your subjective interpretation of which have yet to provide any historical evidence to prove is the one, correct interpretation.
You seem to substitute self righteousness for basic intelligence and knowledge. In other words, you are proud of your ignorance.
Prolifeguyswife
New member
You keep insisting that you know more about the Bible, but you consistently make false claims. There are scores of scriptures that affirm the death penalty for immorality and sexual sins, but you seem to have no knowledge of God's criminal justice system. You continue to make false claims and statements, which disagree with the entire Bible and principles therein.
I just don't think we can go any further with this discussion. If you continue to insist that the Bible doesn't mean what it actually says, you simply don't believe the Bible.
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