Right Divider
Body part
:juggle:
ECT Does Romans 9 support Individual Election?
- Thread starter Potter's Clay
- Start date
Interplanner
Well-known member
RD is the most in denial that the new covenant was enjoyed at the last supper and is for all nations and is what Hebrews 9-10 went on to explain.
I have never seen where RD acknowledges that the new covenant was being celebrated then, nor in the recap in I Cor 10. That puts him with progressives like Hugh Ross who are against the plain meaning of 1 day creation periods and even against other basic translation questions that conflict with his uniformitarianism. It is the same mindset.
D'ism doesn't like what Heb 9-10 says by way of interpreting the new covenant, so it avoids the plain meaning here and in much of Hebrews.
I have never seen where RD acknowledges that the new covenant was being celebrated then, nor in the recap in I Cor 10. That puts him with progressives like Hugh Ross who are against the plain meaning of 1 day creation periods and even against other basic translation questions that conflict with his uniformitarianism. It is the same mindset.
D'ism doesn't like what Heb 9-10 says by way of interpreting the new covenant, so it avoids the plain meaning here and in much of Hebrews.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Musterion,
why did your photo/graphic have new covenant with Israel in 'ages to come'? There is nothing like that in the NT.
why did your photo/graphic have new covenant with Israel in 'ages to come'? There is nothing like that in the NT.
Interplanner
Well-known member
"Made up" is not inherently wrong. There are conclusions you come to from the things emphasized in the 2nd half of Hebrews about these issues, and those conclusions would never match D'ism, nor Judaism. That's why the letter itself addresses the problem of being persecuted by Judaism.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Again .....
NT
Hebrews 8:8 KJV
(8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
OT
Jeremiah 31:31 KJV
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
IP would have you believe the NT and OT are wrong.
NT
Hebrews 8:8 KJV
(8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
OT
Jeremiah 31:31 KJV
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
IP would have you believe the NT and OT are wrong.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Extremely thick irony...
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Seems logical, to me, that the New Covenant would be with the same people as the Old Covenant was. But then again, I haven't scoured thousands of commentaries over a 40 year span.
Right Divider
Body part
... a 40 year SPAM ... :french:
Interplanner
Well-known member
No, that the OT was a picture or shadow of what was coming and the NT is the reality. It (the Gospel) came and that defines everything now. That is actually exactly what Heb 9-10 is saying right after the long quote of Jer in ch 8, so 9-10 is the official interp, not D'ism's yawning and guessing.
1000 of my posts say that the NT is right; the reality has come in Christ. Jn 4:22,23.
There is not the least indication that the New is "round 2" with the nation of Israel. Nada. It is a completely different doctrine because it was Christ acting on the behalf of failures as the 2nd party of the covenant with God. 'I make all things new' including what the covenant was. And yes, the new covenant was eternal, planned from before human time, which is why RD's footer is an empty mockery. It does precede the old.
Interplanner
Well-known member
lol we are supposed to trust STP's logic!
"It is too small a thing for you (the Servant) to restore the fortunes of Israel; I will make you a light to the nations." Is 49.
Right Divider
Body part
Israel will be restored. And not your silly version of "Israel".
Are you trying to quote this?
Isa 49:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(49:6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
God will restore the REMNANT of ISRAEL when He returns to setup His KINGDOM on the EARTH.
Jer 31:6-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:6) For there shall be a day, [that] the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God. (31:7) For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel. (31:8) Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, [and] with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. (31:9) They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn. (31:10) ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare [it] in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd [doth] his flock. (31:11) For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of [him that was] stronger than he. (31:12) Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. (31:13) Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. (31:14) And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.
Glory to God for what He will do!
P.S. You claim that all believers are "Israel" and yet scripture says that only a REMNANT OF ISRAEL will be saved.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Old Covenant was made between God and man through the commands given to Adam (and thus all Adam's seed).
Adam broke this covenant (as do all Adam's seed).
The New Covenant was the promise of remedy for this tragedy; first revealed in the O.T. to Eve in Genesis 3:15 and perfectly fullfilled & performed by Jesus Christ in the N.T.
As IP has said, this New Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant ordained before creation of the world. It is eternal and efficacious unto salvation for a remnant of peoples chosen out of the nations. Rev. 5:9; 7:9
Right Divider
Body part
Absolute and utter nonsense. Invented and not discovered.
Once you believe that garbage, any other dumb thing can easily follow.
The BIBLE defines what are the new and old covenants and they DON'T match with what you say. I'll stick with the Bible.
Jer 31:31-32 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
The OLD covenant was made with THEIR FATHERS.
You are either ignorant and blatantly lying.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Adam was the father of us all, including the nation of Israel.
There was a remnant of mankind saved according to the New Covenant promise of a Saviour from Seth to Noah, and then from Shem to Abraham, that preceded the nation of Israel.
The Old Covenant was given in much more detail to the nation of Israel through Moses, and it brought many souls to knowledge of their need of God's grace and the promised Saviour.
The Old and New have co-existed since the beginning. All history is the result of the workings of Covenant God.
Not a single soul can escape being condemned by the Old Covenant of Law, and only a remnant of mankind comes to know the grace of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ by the will and power of God alone.
Right Divider
Body part
More long-winded hot air.
THEIR FATHERS is CRYSTAL clear and leaves NO DOUBT as to what it means.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But the eternal covenant was the redemptive one, not the one that ministers death, and has always existed, although not performed until the Gospel event. The old covenant was put in place to prove that the new (the Gospel) was needed.
The new covenant is not a 2nd round or 2nd chance for Israel; it has a completely new intention. It was Christ's sacrifice for those who would believe. Heb 9:26, the sacrifice of himself instead of something written by the old covenant. 'Not sacrifice or offering, but a body has been prepared for me...to do Thy will' That's Christ doing the new covenant.
Right Divider
Body part
Your "Covenant" theories are complete and utter nonsense and to NOT reflect the contents of the Bible.
The Bible is SIMPLE and CLEAR on WHO the old and new covenants are with and that is God and ISRAEL.
Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
That is COMPLETELY CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS.
Hebrews CONFIRMS this EXACTLY:
Heb 8:7-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:7) For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (8:10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
This is why you and MANY here invent a fake "Israel" that is NOT the real one. So that you can try to propagate this lie of yours.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Yours end up in nonsense about atonement for sin. You have only 2 options: atonement is only for Israel, or the new covenant is only about land, not atonement. Both are rubbish. You can claim your pedestal as the world's only correct reader of the Bible, but it is comical.
The great news of the NT is that the Gospel of Christ atones for the sins of all who believe. I hope you will believe that that is what the NT is about and get on with your life.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The only way God can put his laws in peoples hearts as in the new covenant is through the power of Christ's atonement for them. That's how we know nothing you have said is correct. We know from the whole NT that the power of christ was meant for this and is driven by the sacrifice for people's sins, no matter what race or class or gender they come from.
I can't find anything in what you say that is like the NT. It is quite scrambled and altered, and frankly it is ugly and weak and powerless.
I can't find anything in what you say that is like the NT. It is quite scrambled and altered, and frankly it is ugly and weak and powerless.