Does God know the future?

[eccl3_6]

I do not see it...help me. Anyone else think his point is self-evident?

If you say God is both limitless and limited (by constraints of time) then this is a blatant contradiction.

 

[godrulz]

As I understand godrulz position he says there is no such thing as a temporal universe, time isnt metaphysical.

But even if it is just succesion/duration God would have to exist within this eternal succesion/duration. Making God and time the ultimate reality instead of just God. From there you can move to other non-somethings like love, space, morality, relationship, and even natural laws. This is God as part of the ultimate reality instead of God being the ultimate reality.

We want to avoid pantheism/panentheism. God is ultimate reality, but He is not the only reality or free moral agent with duration (His had no beginning, ours does). The Creator is distinct from creation (time is not a thing). God is transcendent and immanent, not just transcendent and aloof.

I did not say there is no such thing as a temporal universe. We all experience the passing of time as we think, feel, act, and relate. The universe is tangible and temporal. What I meant was that time is not a molecule. Time does relate to space since we occupy space during the passage of time. Time is not space.

 

[godrulz]

If you say God is both limitless and limited (by constraints of time) then this is a blatant contradiction.

I have stated that time is not a limitation for God like it is for us. God is omniscient. We have limited knowledge. Just because we both have knowledge does not mean that limits God. Just because all personal beings experience duration, does not mean God is limited. He has an unlimited amount of time and is also omnipresent and omnipotent. He is eternal. This contrasts with our finiteness. We are limited by time and experience it. God experiences it, but is not limited by it. You are assuming that knowing the future as possible rather than actual is a limitation. In light of His omnicompetence, future contingencies are not a limitation on God. If anything, His greatness is enhanced since He can still bring about His purposes despite other free moral agent's messing details up.
The contradiction only comes because of your misunderstanding of the nature of limits/limitations/reality/the Open View.

 

[eccl3_6]

I have stated that time is not a limitation for God like it is for us. God is omniscient. We have limited knowledge. Just because we both have knowledge does not mean that limits God. Just because all personal beings experience duration, does not mean God is limited. He has an unlimited amount of time and is also omnipresent and omnipotent. He is eternal. This contrasts with our finiteness. We are limited by time and experience it. God experiences it, but is not limited by it. You are assuming that knowing the future as possible rather than actual is a limitation. In light of His omnicompetence, future contingencies are not a limitation on God. If anything, His greatness is enhanced since He can still bring about His purposes despite other free moral agent's messing details up.
The contradiction only comes because of your misunderstanding of the nature of limits/limitations/reality/the Open View.

In the fourth line of your quote you say 'He has an unlimited amount of time' implying that Hie needs time to do things. I simply see His existence both in our concepts of time, infinity and otherwise, and externally to it-existing outside parameters of time. Because time is an effect of existence. That is why it can be manipulated through relativity.

Its not a misunderstanding of open theism, its an ability to stretch our minds that one step further, and we are trying to let you see that.

 

[godrulz]

In the fourth line of your quote you say 'He has an unlimited amount of time' implying that Hie needs time to do things. I simply see His existence both in our concepts of time, infinity and otherwise, and externally to it-existing outside parameters of time. Because time is an effect of existence. That is why it can be manipulated through relativity.

Its not a misunderstanding of open theism, its an ability to stretch our minds that one step further, and we are trying to let you see that.

He does not 'need' time to do things. It is just evident that doing things or thinking/feeling involves time.

 

[nancy]

justChristian eternity and temporality are contradiction in terms.

Time cannot be actually infinite. It can be potentially infinite. You can always think of the next point in a time line, but an actual line (literally no beginning no end) is an impossibility as there is always something left over from the thinking when we consider actual infinity.

We can think of a line or series that stretches on and on past our reasoning but actually infinite goes beyond our reasoning.

 

[nancy]

Godrulz, spatial relations are the same as time. They are relations we make in our minds and are subjective. So for you to say there is "space" on one hand and time on the other makes no sense.

 

[eccl3_6]

Godrulz, spatial relations are the same as time. They are relations we make in our minds and are subjective. So for you to say there is "space" on one hand and time on the other makes no sense.

Nancy he's just made a metaphysical argument physical which obviously can't be done.





Well not until we crack the Grand Universal Theory.......



.......its bound to cause some arguments when that happens

 

[Z Man]

God experienced an infinite amount of time before He created.

I'm not no scientist or anything, and God knows I hate physics, but how can you say 'before' when there is nothing to relate time to since God never 'began'? In other words, at what time did God create us? Sure, we might say at such and such thousands and thousands of years ago, but that's our reference to time, since we exist in it. But since God is everlasting, at time did He decide to create us?

IMHO, you cannot say at what time in God's 'world', because there is nothing to measure it by - He's everlasting. God must exist outside of time.

This might not make sense to anyone else on this website, but at least I feel better about getting it off my chest.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Still debating? They will never "get it". People like godrulz, knight, etc.....are too invested in this theology to consider that they are mistaken.

 

[eccl3_6]

IMHO, you cannot say at what time in God's 'world', because there is nothing to measure it by - He's everlasting. God must exist outside of time.

Believe it or not from a physicists point of view your actually right!

There are two things here which have been confused early on....(without getting too technical)

#1 Meta physics #2Physics

Metaphysics, a philosophy.
Physics, a science

Meta meaning 'out of' or 'before' or 'after'
Physics ' of nature'

A metaphysical concept of time is much different to a physical concept of time. Simply put when you say God must exist out of time you are saying God must exist both metaphysically and physically ie He was around before the universe was made and is still with us today.

The argument that people were making through was that metaphysical and physical time couldn'y co-exist as a concept. Of course they can, they don't contradict because one is a philosophy the other is science.


Somewhere in the beginning of the thread I did suggest that creationism wasn't at odds with 'time' arguments. It is however at odds with evolutionary theory. Because the thread was being argued by open-theists it didnt get picked up on.

Physically time is a real thing and quite quantifiable, metaphysically - who cares? But it if it does we probably wouldn't recognise it.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Believe it or not from a physicists point of view your actually right!

There are two things here which have been confused early on....(without getting too technical)

#1 Meta physics #2Physics

Metaphysics, a philosophy.
Physics, a science

Meta meaning 'out of' or 'before' or 'after'
Physics ' of nature'

A metaphysical concept of time is much different to a physical concept of time. Simply put when you say God must exist out of time you are saying God must exist both metaphysically and physically ie He was around before the universe was made and is still with us today.

The argument that people were making through was that metaphysical and physical time couldn'y co-exist as a concept. Of course they can, they don't contradict because one is a philosophy the other is science.


Somewhere in the beginning of the thread I did suggest that creationism wasn't at odds with 'time' arguments. It is however at odds with evolutionary theory. Because the thread was being argued by open-theists it didnt get picked up on.

Physically time is a real thing and quite quantifiable, metaphysically - who cares? But it if it does we probably wouldn't recognise it.

:BRAVO: :thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

Believe it or not from a physicists point of view your actually right!

There are two things here which have been confused early on....(without getting too technical)

#1 Meta physics #2Physics

Metaphysics, a philosophy.
Physics, a science

Meta meaning 'out of' or 'before' or 'after'
Physics ' of nature'

A metaphysical concept of time is much different to a physical concept of time. Simply put when you say God must exist out of time you are saying God must exist both metaphysically and physically ie He was around before the universe was made and is still with us today.

The argument that people were making through was that metaphysical and physical time couldn'y co-exist as a concept. Of course they can, they don't contradict because one is a philosophy the other is science.


Somewhere in the beginning of the thread I did suggest that creationism wasn't at odds with 'time' arguments. It is however at odds with evolutionary theory. Because the thread was being argued by open-theists it didnt get picked up on.

Physically time is a real thing and quite quantifiable, metaphysically - who cares? But it if it does we probably wouldn't recognise it.

Eternity exist and is as real as the heart that pumps blood through your body. Actually time as we know it is measured eternity. Eternity didn't stop just because time began. The measurement of eternity, time, exist for our benefit.

 

[eccl3_6]

Eternity exist and is as real as the heart that pumps blood through your body. Actually time as we know it is measured eternity. Eternity didn't stop just because time began. The measurement of eternity, time, exist for our benefit.

Metaphysically yes.

Physically maybe not!

It depends if the universe is stable or not. If it keeps expanding for eternity then physical time will last eternally. If it reaches an equilibrium...eternity. If it collapses we're looking at a reverse of the Big Bang and one thing we do know is that time starts to break down (physically) under those conditions, illustrated brilliantly if not very confusingly by Quantum theory. The end result....finite time.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Metaphysically yes.

Physically maybe not!

It depends if the universe is stable or not. If it keeps expanding for eternity then physical time will last eternally. If it reaches an equilibrium...eternity. If it collapses we're looking at a reverse of the Big Bang and one thing we do know is that time starts to break down (physically) under those conditions, illustrated brilliantly if not very confusingly by Quantum theory. The end result....finite time.

:dizzy:

 

[intro2faith]

Who knew that my innocent lil' thread would turn into such a big deal?

 

[eccl3_6]

Who knew that my innocent lil' thread would turn into such a big deal?

Despertely trying not to sound like physics nerd.....and failing big time

:idea:

 

[elected4ever]

Metaphysically yes.

Physically maybe not!

It depends if the universe is stable or not. If it keeps expanding for eternity then physical time will last eternally. If it reaches an equilibrium...eternity. If it collapses we're looking at a reverse of the Big Bang and one thing we do know is that time starts to break down (physically) under those conditions, illustrated brilliantly if not very confusingly by Quantum theory. The end result....finite time.

Actually no! Eternity is not dependent on the existence of the universe.

 

[eccl3_6]

Actually no! Eternity is not dependent on the existence of the universe.

Not at all, Metaphysically I agree with you. Physics disagrees with us but physics only exists for as long as the universe exists.
And so for as long as I'm on the planet I'll use physics because it works in a physical world (universe) and when the universe ends I'll just be left with Metaphysics and the eternity it provides.....but understanding that is like saying you understand God, or my tax return form.


Its like George Michael once said....











........ You just gotta have faith

 

[godrulz]

justChristian eternity and temporality are contradiction in terms.

Time cannot be actually infinite. It can be potentially infinite. You can always think of the next point in a time line, but an actual line (literally no beginning no end) is an impossibility as there is always something left over from the thinking when we consider actual infinity.

We can think of a line or series that stretches on and on past our reasoning but actually infinite goes beyond our reasoning.

Nicholar Wolterstorff successfully argues for unqualified divine temporality (see IVP "God and Time: 4 views") where God experiences an endless duration of time vs timelessness or 'eternal now'. This Hebraic, biblical view trumps your Greek, Platonic, Augustinian view. I would not be quick to assume your view is correct if you are not conversant with the strengths and weaknessess of alternate views (there are at least 4 possible, credible views of God's relationship to time/eternity).