Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?
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I'm not as dogmatic about it as you think.
I don't find that being an open theist or a settled theist has a great bearing on one's understanding of the Word of God.
Godrulz and Nick M are open theists; do you ever see them agree on anything?
Nang and STP are settled theists; do you ever see them agree on anything?
I am an OVer but I think that is a reasonable explanation. If God had actual amnesia concerning our sins, it seems to me that it would limit His ability to guide us in the future.
How then does God, in His mind, take into account and not take into account our sins eternally?
Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
It means He no longer legally marks or recognizes (Hebrew "zakar") our sins against us.
Which is the result of imputed righteousness of the last Adam, that legally overrules and pardons (removes) the imputation of guilt imposed upon us through the first Adam.
Are you an absolute and pure literalist?
Nang
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I am a Supralapsarian Reformer, who believes that before God created He knew and took into account that creatures He brought forth into being, would not measure up to His moral commands, nor His glory. (God did not intend to "create" infinite beings equal to Himself. God is uncreate by definition, so even God would not create "Gods.")
Thus, before creation, Father and Son covenanted to redeem men who would most certainly prove to be finite and sinful (fall short of the glory of God).
If God absolutely knows all, what could be defined as added or "new?" Such would be a logical contradiction.
Reformed Christians do not limit God in any capacity/ability and do not believe anything can or should be added to the definition of God or His eternal purposes; nor is there anything in this creation that is "new" to God.
Such is solely a demeaning OV theory which is not biblical at all.
Nang
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How can that possibly be, since everything is already known?
So, according to you (and Calvinism) God has every detestable human act throughout "earthly" history eternally present in His mind, because He knows "all" things?
I can explain it, but that does not mean I am going to explain it. :wave2:
Yeah.....I do that all th' time! :noid:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Originally Posted by Nang
Thus, before creation, Father and Son covenanted to redeem men who would most certainly prove to be finite and sinful (fall short of the glory of God).
Redemption was established by the Everlasting Covenant between Father and Son, prior to the decree to create. That is the Supralapsarian view. Redemption was "known" before anything else was put into place, including creation.
Here is the logical order of divine decrees in eternity:
1. God the Father unconditionally elected to redeem a people for God the Son, to share in His inherited glory, to the glory of His name.
2. This redemption was decreed to come through the Son's sacrificial and substitutional work on the cross.
3. God decreed that all men would fall short of the glory of God.
4. God decreed to create and manifest these purposes, to the glory of His name.
The above all were temporally brought about in time and proven in reverse order:
1. God created.
2. Man fell short of the glory of God.
3. Christ redeemed a people by His cross work.
4. These redeemed people share Christ's inheritance in glory.
Thus, according to this (very simplified) explanation, there is no room for God not knowing any detail of His purposes and intents. What was decreed, ordained and determined before time, was perfectly achieved in time.
Yes.
Nothing has ever been hidden from His sight, or beyond His remedy and ability to extend grace and everlasting life.
Nang
Thus, before creation, Father and Son covenanted to redeem men who would most certainly prove to be finite and sinful (fall short of the glory of God).
Redemption was established by the Everlasting Covenant between Father and Son, prior to the decree to create. That is the Supralapsarian view. Redemption was "known" before anything else was put into place, including creation.
Here is the logical order of divine decrees in eternity:
1. God the Father unconditionally elected to redeem a people for God the Son, to share in His inherited glory, to the glory of His name.
2. This redemption was decreed to come through the Son's sacrificial and substitutional work on the cross.
3. God decreed that all men would fall short of the glory of God.
4. God decreed to create and manifest these purposes, to the glory of His name.
The above all were temporally brought about in time and proven in reverse order:
1. God created.
2. Man fell short of the glory of God.
3. Christ redeemed a people by His cross work.
4. These redeemed people share Christ's inheritance in glory.
Thus, according to this (very simplified) explanation, there is no room for God not knowing any detail of His purposes and intents. What was decreed, ordained and determined before time, was perfectly achieved in time.
Yes.
Nothing has ever been hidden from His sight, or beyond His remedy and ability to extend grace and everlasting life.
Nang
I can see that you have fully and completely missed the point. Thanks for trying.
wow. Now I know that you not only believe that God purposed every detestable act throughout earthly history, but everyone of those acts have eternally been in His mind. Therefore, according to you, the god of Calvinism not only eternally thinks about children being molested but has decreed every child molesting act.
I've heard all I need to hear. Thanks for clearing things up.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Now I know that you not only believe that God purposed every detestable act throughout earthly history, but everyone of those acts have eternally been in His mind. Therefore, according to you, the god of Calvinism not only eternally thinks about children being molested but has decreed every child molesting act.
You specifically asked about what God has always known. What God has always known is theologically distinguished from God's purposes and good pleasures.
God decrees were not based upon His foreknowledge (however complete and absolute His knowledge certainly has always been), but God's decrees were based upon His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name. This is a God-centered understanding. (Ephesians 1:9-12; Romans 8:28-30; 9:14-24)
I would suppose you would make the common and erroneous Arminian argument, that God elected to extend grace to sinners according to His foreknowledge of their choices, rather than according to His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name. Such proves to be a man-centered understanding.
Until you are able to distinguish between divine intent and foreknowledge, you will continue to be confused and thus find it needful to resort to emotional tactics; blaspheming and accusing God of causing the sins of men.
Nang
Then, one may say, all need God!
Nang
TOL Subscriber
"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:11-12
These words cannot be applied universally to all men, for not all men are brought to a believing trust in Jesus Christ.
Not all souls have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev. 20:15)
Nang
Lon
Well-known member
In my estimation, we are guessing because we are trying to apprehend the mind and purposes of God (finite cannot apprehend infinite).
Rather, I would redirect some of these questions for a different appreciation:
1) God is infinite which means He is beyond our ability to completely grasp. My dog knows to go potty outside, but I don't think she knows why. She can only comprehend so much with what God has given her.
We likewise, have finite limitations.
2) Nothing is outside of God. This is a complete paradigm shift in our thinking from ourselves. We think mostly about things completely outside of ourselves in finiteness because we are finite. It is natural for us to do so, but God has given us glimpses and directions for how to think of Him.
Continuing:
Philosophically, that is, by our reasoning, we understand that nothing exists without God. As the scripture tells us that all things consist by Him, the extent of our actions and thoughts must flow from His sustaining them. Whatever proceeds, then, must necessarily originate in Him as the source of all things. As I said, we think about things as separate from ourselves. Beside God, there is nothing. He is the whole of His being.
Logically as well, we know that He is infinite and yet we comprehend this by thinking spatially. When Jesus says "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth" He is telling us that our apprehension of this must transcend the physical.
Let us consider Enyart's question: "Can God write a new song?" In answering, we have to take into account at least two things, that it would necessarily exist only by His sustaining power, and as such, that power has always existed. Also, we must recognize our own finiteness. For us, things are new because we are finite. That is, if we see something outside of ourselves, it is indeed new to us.
An illustration: There is nothing new to my body. I didn't wake up today with anything different. It would be kind of silly to ask if I could have a new arm today. It isn't a restriction on my being and certainly doesn't make me a stone. To say I'm 'stuck' this way isn't very meaningful to any of us. I am exactly what I'm supposed to be and need nothing 'new' to define my physical body meaningfully. In the same way, we have things that simply don't need addition. I don't have to go out and buy new furniture, my house if fully furnished. Now of course we experience change and the need for change because of the very fact that we are finite (things expire, things need to progress for us). We can't buy anything new for the God who has everything. He already owns it, even if we tried. That thing, whatever it may be, comes into being by Him. It is a finite thing dependent upon the infinite for its existence.
In a nutshell, this is the crucial point. God is independent and we are fully dependent. God is infinite, we are finite. God is the primary cause of all, we and what we do is secondary. Philosophically then, I would submit that God is all He will ever be because there is nothing outside of Him, and, being infinite, He is already wherever, whenever, and however anything will be because everything proceeds from Him and consists "...without Him, nothing would exist, that exists..."
I know I haven't said anything definitive here, I'm just trying to broaden the questions in hopes that we will see both our finite apprehension and catch a glimpse of our infinite God (such is the purpose of my sig).
In Him
-Lon
Nang
TOL Subscriber
All sinners are on the "lessor path" due to the choice of Adam, and only by God's choosing to extend His grace, are any souls shown the narrow gate to everlasting life.
That is just a bit too redundant.:dizzy:
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Ghost,
This is actually the basic view of Catholic and mainstream Protestant alike. The only group denying God's knowledge of past, present, and future are open theists, who deny God can know the future.
Don't know why you think this is just a Calvinist issue.
A good starting point is Shaw's exposition here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_02.html
BTW, don't be a stranger. Good to see you posting from time to time.
AMR
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